Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

I understand but I'd say it's possible for anyone to walk into either toilet (maybe when it's quiet and no one sees them go in/they hide in a cubicle) and by the time they are challenged or removed it would be too late.

So lets remove all protection then, that'll make things safer?

I understand but I'd say it's possible for anyone to walk into either toilet (maybe when it's quiet and no one sees them go in/they hide in a cubicle) and by the time they are challenged or removed it would be too late.

What do you mean by too late? What if that man isn't actually doing anything 'wrong' but is getting off on knowing that women are uncomfortable with him being there? There are quite a few men like that sort of thing aren't there?

*Making smirking eye contact, or smugly looking you up and down. Who wants that when half naked, using a tampax machine, or having morning sickness?
*
Half naked people in the toilets?
I don't think toilet areas should be shared at all, they should all be individual.

And yes, this argument 'well people might do bad things anyway, so let's remove all safeguards and protections' just doesn't wash.

Self ID means that while your “passing” transwoman can now use the womens toilets, so can all the other men who just fancy coming in to make women uncomfortable, or to assault. There won’t be a sign on the door saying “women and passing transwomen” it will be a unisex toilet that those same men the passing transwoman is afraid of can just follow them straight into the toilet.

She is a woman, clearly. Look at her.

That statement would be considered transphobic by TRAs.

According to them you cannot look a person and name their sex.

So lets remove all protection then, that'll make things safer?

Not at all, I'm just trying to gain a better understanding. I've always believed toilets should be individual spaces.

Don’t know why people are making up this conspiracy that they’re dressing as women to be there.
Unfortunately not a conspiracy.
It’s in the definition of LGBT now. T Which includes nowdays not just people who have had gender assignment or people who genuinely ‘feel like’ the other sex. It includes cross dressers (who know very well they are men), sex fetish, queer people etc etc.
It’s the story of the person who rape several women (so I wouod say is very clearly a man) but says he is a transwoman. These people (as the rapists, sexual abusers etc...) are always there butbtyere is no need to make it easier for them.

No but someone who has had top and bottom surgery would clearly be protected under the legislation.

No. The legislation does not depend on surgery. Surgery does not depend on the legislation. They're entirely separate.

I believe some countries made surgery a prerequisite to legally be called the opposite sex. But the UK doesn't.

datun you are making the wrong argument. I am a discrimination lawyer. I know the law on this very well. You are also preaching to the converted.

I didn't say that you only get a GRC if you have had surgery. I said that if you have had surgery you will qualify under the existing legislation. It's a different point.

The legislation also enables some of those who have not had surgery to qualify. I am not disputing that. But this person has had top and bottom surgery and (whilst this person lives in the US), would have protection if in the UK.

That does not make this person a woman. This person is a transwoman

I’m just waiting for the ‘a woman can phone the police if a crime is committed’ garbage to be trotted out. Yup, that’ll be a great comfort to any woman or child that is assaulted by someone pretending to be trans. I want risks to women and children to be minimised not to completely remove all gate keeping because someone’s feelings might be hurt.

Yup, that’ll be a great comfort to any woman or child that is assaulted by someone pretending to be trans.

Yep, and when they call rape crisis for support they are answered by a transwoman asking them to divulge the details of their assault.

Half naked people in the toilets?
I don't think toilet areas should be shared at all, they should all be individual.

Well yes, that would be grand. But it wouldn't be acceptable to TRAs.

Because they want the validation of accessing a female loo. There is no validation to be had from a single occupancy facility.

And I think that a lot of transwomen fail to understand quite how necessary privacy dignity is in a female toilet. Not all the time, but often enough.

Most miscarriages happen on the toilet. Morning sickness, pregnancy tests, expressing milk, trying to hold the door shut with one hand and look after a toddler and a pushchair with the other, period accidents, moon cup issues.

Our biology has a lot more to it.

It's not always just about having a quick wee and re-applying lippy.

I don't think they realise that. Why would they?

Why do we automatically assume this person is "at risk" in the mens toilets. Are mens toielts full of men attracted to trans women who also happen to be rapists? The number of men in the population that want to rape transwomen must be so low.

Or do we think that transwomen are at risk of homiphobic violence. Well surely the same goes for gay men, shall we let them in the ladies then as well?

Fwiw, I don't have a problem with transwomen that pass using the ladies. But the issue now is that trans women, gender fluid and non binary people also want to use the ladies. So might we better off addressing the issues that are apparently going on in the gents rather than opening the doors to the ladies?

‘If you don’t have a penis, you use the women’s toilet’

Why? A woman isn’t ‘anything and everything without a penis’

I said that if you have had surgery you will qualify under the existing legislation

No you won't. Not under the gender recognition act. You can't legally be a woman, unless you have a certificate. Which has got nothing to do with surgery.

Plenty of transwomen have surgery, and don't have a certificate. They are not legal women. That's the whole point of Jennifer Jameses crowd funder to challenge the Labour Party over all women shortlists.

If you are talking about the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in equality law, then that's different. Although, again, surgery has nothing to do with it. You can be protected under that characteristic without surgery. Although I agree, having surgery would be a bit of shoe in. But, you don't even need to be trans to be protected under that characteristic. Just for someone to think you are.

We're probably talking at cross purposes. But I want to be clear. Because many people do think that surgery is a prerequisite for legality. And are shocked to find that 90% keep their penis.

not having a penis doesn't mean you have a vagina.

The question is dishonest, it should be, "Would you really say this man has too pee in the men's toilets" because of course the individual in question is a man, and adult human male.

Toilets are separated by sex, not how you dress. Men in dresses still use the men's toilets, women in trousers still use the womens.

Or are you really saying that as a woman with short hair, and stereotypically male clothing, I should be using the men's because of how I dress?

We may well be talking at cross puposes. I am not saying that having surgery makes someone biologically female or 'legally' a woman. But the protection exists under the gender reassignment provisions of the Equality Act and someone who has had bottom surgery would qualify.

I agree it's important for people to know that most retain a penis.

What Datum says.

SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.

Not necessarily. That person was born a man and has a mans strength. Therefore they could (stand a better chance to) fight off a man. What if they still have a penis and rape women in women's toilets? A (some) woman stands a lesser chance to fight this person off.

Is that enough disclaimers for the pedants?

I firmly believe that women's loos should be for people without a penis.

I do feel sorry for the person in the picture as clearly they would like to use the ladies. In this instance I would have thought that it would be appropriate to pop into the disabled loo.

Could she be allowed in the women's toilets?

Penis, no.
No penis, yes.

This is Tara Hudson. Another transwomen who passes more than most.

Tara has a penis, is very proud of it. Tara has eight convictions for violence, including being imprisoned for head-butting a barman and breaking all his teeth, (for refusing service due to Tara being drunk.)

Appearances are immaterial. As is the penis. Tara didn't break his teeth with her penis.

How does letting men say they are women, and use women's spaces and services, and compete against women in sports, benefit women?

I don't think there is much of a risk from transsexuals using women's toilets. But self-id will open it up much more, and remove any sort of social gatekeeping. Abusive men won't even bother to self-id, but because of self-id no one would have any grounds to complain until it's too late, for fear of being prosecuted for a hate crime in daring to object to men being in women's spaces.