Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

I was joking, sorry if that wasnt obvious
Well, no, it wasn't, as you came across as he's alright as he's fit and you'd do him. so would I if I wasn't married and shy to boot lol

If forced to share private spaces with males, why that one group of males?
I never said that one group of males. You brought it up. If someone did before you, apologies. I've just seen your comments on him and his appearances like though.

My point is you don't know Tom H is worthy of letting in your dressing room. Why does he pass? Because you fancy him?
(I think he's finnnnne and would let him in my dressing room any day.)
Regardless of whether he wanted to be Tom or Thomasina.
That's beside the point though, as it's not about the fact whether they're phsyically attractive or not.It's acknowledging that there might be more out there to appearance. (I wouldn't know, I match up both biologically and mindfully)
but willing to read and keep an open mind.

Oh look here's Rat Roly Poly doing that clever "sounding" but actually not very bright thing again. Amused me dear Rat to see that you were gratified by my previous observation of your posts as you clearly hadn't comprehended the actual meaning of what I said ( not very bright) and had picked out what suited your own self identity (clever sounding). My resolve has been hardened by the stupidity and danger of the absolute nonsense you argue the toss about. Women / adult human females do not have penises.

Someone was determined I hadn't told them what I thought a woman was at over point, but seeing as you can literally Google "RatRolyPoly Mumsnet definition woman" I think you can take my word for that

Ok challenge accepted.
You think a woman is an adult human female, or some one who thinks they are an adult human female.
So going round in circles, define what it FEELS LIKE to be adult human female, and as children are involved what a juvenile human female feels like. I remember you saying your female, so it can't be that hard.

If she has a penis then no. I don't want any dicks in my toilets.

If no penis, fine. In you come.

These comments read horribly

Justified anger at some terrible behaviour seems to have led to a consensus view to make comments that in another context would be hate speak .

Because penises do damage, I wont' say that a man in possession of one, is a woman.

He may FEEL like a woman but with a penis, he's a man.

I'll call you she if you want but you're not coming into my changing rooms.

Justified anger at some terrible behaviour seems to have led to a consensus view to make comments that in another context would be hate speak

If you see legitimate 'hate speak', report it. It will be deleted.

I also said I wouldnt mind sharing a loo with someone like Graham Lineham.

He at least appears to have respect for women. When you tell a man no, and they start screaming reasons why they should continue to do it anyway, thats a huge, massive red flag.

Not all transwomen, obviously. But look how many come on mumsnet to tell us our boundaries are wrong and were evil/ terfs/ bigots/ witches for saying no.

Huge red flags. They are the last people that should be in female spaces.

I saw the same post as verbeena

Don't remember who it was but im fairly positive it wasnt deleted so should be searchable

It was months ago and one person

Another favourite saying is that mn isnt a hive mind and if one person has a problem with anything i dont tend to tar everyone with the same brush

So yeah...one person on FWR has a problem with all transwomen (note... not all transpeople)

What the problem is ive no idea

Transwomen have to learn the same lesson that us men do, namely that you're barred from certain sex-segregated spaces not because women and girls are mean, or exclusionary, or bigoted, or over emotional or phobic, but because they have a right to protection from people who pose a threat.
It matters not one f that not all people in a group have that intention, some do and that's enough.
If you don't like that complain to your fellow men, or transwomen, you know, the ones who actually harm others. They're to blame, not women who rightly want to feel, and be, safe.

t's clear that MN is host to the extreme side as well though that says all transpeople and that I'm not OK with

MN is also host to the extreme side that says anyone who self ids

(Must read faster)

led to a consensus view

What concensus view?

nobody told me there was a consensus view

Im feeling left out

so how about we reverse te situation abit as its one ive ponderd on myself having a close family member FTM, if you had a transman who has the privalge of passing as a man, had top surgery but not bottom surgery (which is what the majority of trans men go with) would you be completly fine with infact saying they should use the ladies? Cause i think that would make me feel slightly unconfatble if i thought they were a man and they were peing in the womens - so i do understand alot of the points brought across on this thread

Of course they could use the female spaces.

What would that person look like? A female with short hair whos flat chested? Maybe some facial hair? That describes lots of women.

Do you think that woman should be in male spaces? A male prison?

I agree, but some trans men especially those who transitioned early are a bit more than flat chested and facial hair, testosterone distributes fat and muscle on stomach, hips and face, deeper voice by facial hair can have full beards and moustache! I cant think how diffcuilt it must be for transmen feeling they have to go to female facilities when on period it must be so invalidating.

Thats one of the huge problems.

Sex segregation isnt about validation. Its safeguarding.

If a pre-op transman commited a crime, do you think they should be in a male or female prison?

I really couldnt answer, its a very diffcuilt topic. It would obvioulsy also depend on GRC's i guess

Maybe the men's could be the default unisex space as they always have no queues.

The ladies could be reserved for biological females only.

letssee Testosterone appears to stop menstruation fairly quickly. I suspect that by the time transmen look male enough to be comfortable using the men's loos, they would no longer have periods.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5685207/

Even with GRCs, there are no transmen in male prisons.

The why is obvious, its safegaurding. They would be at huge risk.

But its utter fucking bullshit we can acknowledge the risk when its a transperson at harm, and not when its a female.

For the first time in my life I'm grateful to my disability for something, as it allows me to use a disabled toilet with a companion.

I was sexually abused at a young age. It almost became normal throughout my teens. After decades of ongoing counselling and ignoring my own feelings when it was happening, I know now it wasn't.

I've been left terrified of men in general. I'm very untrusting as I don't want to put myself at risk of sexual abuse ever again. To have to share what I consider safe, female-only spaces with a person with a penis is absolutely horrifying to me.

I'm not alone. All the women in my abuse survivor group feel the same.

We're not man-haters. Some of us have been able to find a partner who we've finally felt safe enough to trust. Most of us have daughters that we are very protective of - some of us have grand-daughters. We all still feel the pain and terror of the abuse we suffered at the hands of men.

I do not give a shit how many people I upset, I do not want to share spaces that have always previously meant I've felt safe from men, with anyone who owns a penis. Nor would I want my daughter or grand-daughter to be potentially put in danger of any form of abuse just to make a person with a penis feel more like a woman - no matter how nice/genuine/kind they might be.

I was bullied by girls in the toilets in secondary school. As unpleasant as it was, it didn't affect me like the sexual abuse I suffered at the hands of a man has. It's worlds apart.

The thing about sex abuse is it makes the abused woman feel very ashamed. Shame makes us hide abuse. The way girls are traditionally brought up also makes them too polite to make a fuss or report it. How many young girls would report a "woman" who clearly isn't, doing something to make them feel uncomfortable in a public toilet? Not many.

The under-reporting of abuse is huge. I didn't report mine, nor did most of the women in my group. Even with the system as it is today for reporting historical abuse, we haven't. We all have our reasons, but all believe that re-living the trauma is too great a price to pay.

I do not want any young girl or woman to be in the position of finding themselves face-to-face with someone who could hurt them emotionally for life of physically for a moment just to be "nice" to penis owners, however they label themselves.

Not every penis owner is bad, but why should any woman be forced to find out that some can be by allowing them into women-only spaces?

I don't care what you look like or how you feel, if you have a penis, stay out of female-only spaces.

that would make me feel slightly unconfatble if i thought they were a man and they were peing in the womens

But you're ok with an actual man peeing in the womens?

i can see both sides of the argument, but it does seem that a few people are saying, or this is just how it comes across, that EVREY transwomen is a rapist/sex offender its unfair that these few few transwomen give evrey transwomen a bad name

That’s irrelevant. I’m sure most transwomen are decent. Most men are decent too, but we don’t let them in the women's loos as a class because some of them have the potential to do great harm.

This situation is not about individuals. It doesn’t matter if an individual transwoman is a living Saint. Men don’t go in the ladies.

We exclude all the members of the class of male for very good reason. An individual’s niceness or not is neither here nor there.

My husband is a lovely, gentle bloke who is no harm or threat to anyone. He doesn’t go in the ladies because he’s a man. He’s appalled by the idea.

One nice man, one nice transwoman. A thousand nice transwomen. It doesn’t matter. Men are excluded as a class. Men understand this - they aren’t whining that it’s a personal insult.

When men as a class are no longer a threat to women, we can think about removing sex segregation. Since men commit 98% of sexual crime that’s a fairly long way off happening. So for now, until that blissful day when Male violence rates are like female violence rates, we exclude them ALL.

The loos are not for validation.