Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

You're asking the wrong question of the wrong people. If a transwoman feels at risk in the male toilets then why not address male violence? Or campaign for trans toilets? Women are always the ones being asked to accommodate and to do the emotional labour of coming up with solutions.

I'd be happy to have her in the women's toilets, I wouldn't know what she has in her underwear or chromosomes anyway.

No one has to do any "emotional labour" to have her in the toilets, she would cause no problem.

Before they became long blonde haired and beautiful were they a bloke called Steve, with a mans muscles, height and build, penis etc?

Now they wear make up and have long blonde hair, do they still have a mans muscles, height and build and a penis?

If yes, then they should use the men's toilets, the only thing that is different is that they are wearing make up and have long hair and women's clothes.

Should we stop all boys from the age of eight up to about 14 who might be much smaller (and physically unable to defend themselves from dangerous men), from going in men's toilets because they will be just as vulnerable as this person?

So NO, they should go into the men's toilets as far as I am concerned. And just be cautious depending on the area the toilets are in. Grotty toilets in local dodgy park, give it a miss. Men's toilets in high street store, no problem (I would hope).

If a person has a penis they should use the facilities used by penis bearers. It isn't hard. No penises in women only spaces.

Trans rights activists argue that men who identify as women present no risk to women in the ladies. If this is true, and men pose no risk I can see no reason why men who identify as women shouldn't use the gents.

Exactly.

Also it's quite hard to tell from a still photo that has been cropped anything about how well a transwoman 'passes' in real life. Plus, is the measure of a how valid a transwoman is a woman how well they 'pass'? What about the transwomen who don't pass, isn't it unfair on them, if 'transwomen are women'?

If a person has a penis they should use the men's loo and I agree with what DeerHearts said.

Do you have permission to post that photo?

If her safety were to be compromised in the mens, then its about time men were held accountable for their actions instead of women.

This!

It always amazes me in these discussions how matter-of-fact people are about male violence. It's like, if you walk into a wolf den, you'll probably get bitten; if you swim in a storm, you might drown; if you're a female or effeminate person entering a male space, you'd better expect assault, harrassment and worse.

WTF? The men who do this aren't animals or weather patterns. They're functioning human beings who have jobs, friends, families, hobbies and ambitions. They are making a choice to threaten or harm others, and instead of recognizing that a culture of toxic masculinity enables this, we're just acting like it's an inevitable natural threat and blaming women for not sufficiently protecting themselves and all others from it.

We can't go by who can "pass" anyway because it's totally subjective.

Yes, this idea that it's just inevitable that men will do harm and that's just the way it is, so we have to everything we can to avoid the risk, rather than expecting men not to harm in the first place, is so fucked up.

Self ID will allow the dangerous men into the womans toilets, it's doesn't actually help the person in the photo who presumable has a GRC.

Everything Deer and Jessica said.

Why are more transwomen not calling out male violence? Why is up to natal woman to do it and get all the shit from TRA's at the same time?

I also find the argument that "This transwoman is so pretty so passes and should definitely be allowed to use the ladies" a bit offensive too. I'm sure there are many transwomen amongst us now who have been getting on with their lives peacefully for many years with no Look at Meeeee drama who actually don't look as feminine as that person but that is no indicator whatsoever of how womanly they may feel. Actually even I'm not anywhere near as (presented solely for the male gaze?) "pretty" as that individual. They are really very attractive but I'm sorry they will never be a Woman.

I have felt uncomfortable in the ladies loo when a couple of "passing" TW like this one were in there. As they were v tall and I found them quite intimidating and didn't really pass although perhaps in photos they would have. They were male though, you could tell.

If this is the future and we have such a lot maybe we need a third space which could be a separate enclosed unisex toilet.

My main issue is with sports, prisons, refuges, hospital wards etc though. Places where sex can easily be quantified and measured.

BTW - I think the photo is of 'Eden the Doll' - the male model who became a human doll. Here's one media article about Eden - with lots of near porno shots.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4717274/Former-male-model-transitions-woman.html

If you have a penis you go in the men’s.
If you don’t have a penis you go in the laddies.

A lot of places do now have mixed sex single toilets and I think in time a lot more places with just to stop people moaning about which toilet they should go in, though I don’t see the confusion really, you either have a penis or you don’t.

I do have trans friends, females transitioning to males but people don’t seem to be as bothered about them because they are not a threat to women (as they don’t have a penis).

Can you explain how will self ID help the person in the photo OP?

The answer is that it doesn't. It put's her at risk, like it puts women at risk.

I’d be happy for any trans woman to use the women’s toilets.

Men dressed as men are attacking women everywhere including toilets and changing rooms anyway. Don’t know why people are making up this conspiracy that they’re dressing as women to be there.

The problem with people like the transwoman in the photo is that not only do they think womanhood is a stereotype, they think it's a hyper sexualised one. Their sexism is blatant.

They really should not be female spaces amongst vulnerable women.

Don’t know why people are making up this conspiracy that they’re dressing as women to be there

Nobody is making this up, or actually saying this.

Actually either we let go of self id (which is creating more problems than it solves imo) or we have men/women/disabled/gender neutral toilet (the latest ones been self contained, with a hand washing facility inside, just like disabled toilets are).
You could even argue that seeing the number of people affected, you could transform the disabled toilet into a disabled/gender neutral toilet.

What is NOT ok is to decide to give up on protection towards women/female (sex!) only areas etc because it’s putting women at risk.

And if it’s not ok to out a transwoman at risk by asking her to use the gents, whynis it ok to ask women to be out at risk by accepting to see people who are abusing the system into the women toilets?
If it’s not ok to put one group atbrisk, then it’s also not ok to put another group at risk.
Whatever solution is fund is NOT going to be by asking women to let any man going into female spaces.

No one has to do any "emotional labour" to have her in the toilets, she would cause no problem

If she has a penis she could cause some real problems.

Women stop being so bloody PC and stand up for your rights and your daughter's rights to have a wee/change your tampon in relative safety.

Men dressed as men are attacking women everywhere including toilets and changing rooms anyway

And it's going to get a lot worse if more places allow them (Which self ID will do). Worse for transwomen, worse for women and worse for children.

Trans women like this have used the women’s room for years. I have no problem with it.

Ever heard of Karen White, 2minutes?