Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

Ah yes, Eden is of course a 'woman' because women are nothing more than 'human dolls'. Same old shit, but this shit is apparently progressive.

This person has had full top and bottom surgery. IMO (and in the eyes of the law) they therefore have every right to use the women's toilets.

If this person retained their penis they should be using the mens toilets.

that photo doesn't tell me anything OP, they could look extremely masculine in RL - height, gait, overall size etc.

The thing to remember is passing = deceiving. Deceiving women (in this instance) into not realising what is in front of them. But most trans identifying men aren't actually able to do this.

This is something that should be made very clear to anyone contemplating going down this route - that choosing to do this isn't just All About Them,

Do you really not think Predators will use self ID as a way to access single sex spaces 2minutespeace ?

Right now we have a system that allows people like the person in the OP's photo to access womans toilets, it's already in placem, self ID is not about this.
Self ID lets anyone say they are male of female.

I don't understand the gist of your argument, which seems to be that men's toilets are a dangerous place.

I am a woman, and I don't usually use men's toilets. However that's not due to fear, that's because it's socially unacceptable.

I have sometimes used men's toilets when I couldn't find the women's, or they were being cleaned, or there was a big queue. This is socially transgressive but did not make me less of a woman. And I definitely didn't think of wetting myself as a genuine alternative to using the men's.

As other posters have said, if men's loos are genuinely a no-go area then that's a major problem that needs to be fixed. However I feel you may be exaggerating for effect rather than genuinely think that men's toilets are dangerous.

I can't judge on a picture. This person might walk like a man, have a penis, wee noisily standing up, talk like a man, be 6 foot 5).

A year ago I would probably have had no problem with them using the ladies but since then I have developed empathy. I realise that not everyone has my confidence. Some teenage girls might be nervous using sanpro (or buying it) with someone with a mans body around. Some abused women or girls might also have a problem with it. My priority would be to think of these people's needs first. And work out why this person could not comfortably go into the gents toilet. Perhaps men who might bully them should be punished and /or better educated/ socialised to be more tolerant and accepting.

The very odd skewed thinking seems to be...
Men in toilets are very dangerous so transwomen need to use the ladies
Men in ladies' toilets aren't dangerous to women

That's what it boils down to, isn't it? That men are dangerous to transwomen, but not to women? And that it's women's job to be human shields for transwomen? It's not my job.

I clean public toilets as part of my job.
I've seen people who look like men use the females and females that look like females use the men's, why i don't know! seems a free for all. no idea what they are under their clothes.
people look at me like I should be saying something, um, no,i get min wage to clean, not my business haha

I'm gender critical, but if someone is really "walking the walk" as this person evidently is, rather than putting on a dress once a week and winning "businesswoman of the year" then I respect their wishes.
This ^^ If it's patently obvious that someone is serious about changing then I don't have a problem with it. I'm only bothered if someone is claiming to identify as the opposite sex but clearly doesn't on a full-time basis & isn't planning surgery.

This person has had full top and bottom surgery. IMO (and in the eyes of the law) they therefore have every right to use the women's toilets.

Surgery is not a criteria for a GRC.

*The problem with people like the transwoman in the photo is that not only do they think womanhood is a stereotype, they think it's a hyper sexualised one. Their sexism is blatant.

They really should not be female spaces amongst vulnerable women*

Sorry Datum but this is nonsense. MANY women who are not trans style themselves in a similar way. I see them everywhere. Are you offended by their hyper sexuality too?

Trans women like this one would be best off going in the bathroom that will cause least disruption to others, I.E. the women’s bathroom. Just as trans men who look like Fox Fisher/Charlie Kiss would ideally go in the men’s bathroom in order to avoid causing distress to women.

People who don’t remotely pass - and let’s be honest, most of the latest wave of TRA types aren’t even TRYING to pass - will cause less disruption in the toilet of their birth sex, which is why they should use those. Not because of some abstract principle about their chromosomes.

In general we need a move towards additional toilets for trans people and/or mixed-sex toilets that have been properly set up, though.

Other sex-specific facilities are harder to deal with. Toilets are honestly the tip of the iceberg. As you surely know, OP.

sorry, can someone tell me who currently does the Penis Check at the door of every women’s loo?

To be honest Eden would probably have 'passed' pre op and so nobody would have been any the wiser.

What I don't understand OP is that if you make women's toilets unisex, why shouldn't the mens be too?

And why is this person in more danger in the mens than the womens?

She should use the ladies (if that's what she wants) and I don't care if she has a penis.
Maybe it's just the public toilets in my area but anyone (a man) could walk in and hide in a cubicle or attack someone. Transwomen aren't a concern to me.

It's the women's loos, not the loos for women and men who would be vulnerable in the men's (which could include all sorts of men, for example gender non conforming men and the very young). I don't know this person so don't know whether they would 'pass' from this picture, but if this male person would not be safe in the men's loo then that is a problem with the men's loo. Maybe they could campaign for access to unisex or single occupant loos?

captainkirk hang on one minute. Did you just say that nobody is making out that men dressed as women are going to coming to women’s space to attack women, and then go on to say exactly that?

can someone tell me who currently does the Penis Check at the door of every women’s loo?

If self ID becomes a thing, you realise men won't have to even attempt to look like a woman to be female don't you, from Transsexuals right up to bearded men with fetishes?

She is a woman, clearly. Look at her. It would be degrading to her if she was identifying as female to then have to use the male toilet. Maybe there should be more individual cubicles these days so that everyone can have more privacy, whoever they are.

id you just say that nobody is making out that men dressed as women are going to coming to women’s space to attack women, and then go on to say exactly that?

No, i'm saying self ID will allow men dressed as men who have no real interest in transistioning to access female spaces and put everyone in danger.

This ^^ If it's patently obvious that someone is serious about changing then I don't have a problem with it. I'm only bothered if someone is claiming to identify as the opposite sex but clearly doesn't on a full-time basis & isn't planning surgery.

Whilst I understand the basis for this argument, it doesn't stand up.

In the only study of its kind, where transwomen were found to conform to male pattern criminality, the subjects all had gender dysphoria.

Karen Jones (already a convicted killer) actually blamed their gender dysphoria and craving for surgery for the attempted rape of a woman.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/amp/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

Surgery is not a criteria for a GRC.

No but someone who has had top and bottom surgery would clearly be protected under the legislation.

She is a woman, clearly. Look at her.

Sorry, but how exactly is this person a woman?

Self ID is not going to make transwomen any safer.

Bravo Deer - excellent response.

I have no issue with genuine transgender people using the toilet of the gender they identify with. I have major issue with self id granting any sexual predator the right to waltz in to a womans protected space and do as they please. I don't believe transwomen are sexual predators. I do believe sexual predators will abuse self id for their own sick pleasure. I have no idea what the solution to this is, but removing womens sex based rights is not what we should be doing. There needs to be a solution that protects EVERYONE