Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

Men who call themselves women rape and muder at the same rate as men

Can you please show your sources? That legally recognised transgender woman continue to rape and murder at the same rate as men? I know that line is handed out a lot on mumsnet, so I’d like to read it. Thanks.

Of course, theres a website called transgender crimes which lists all the UK cases.

Be careful reading it though, the amount of rape, sexual abuse and child sexual abuse is horrifying, its not something one could sit and read for long, is you see what I mean.

That website is not coming up on google, could you link to it please?

Men who call themselves women rape and muder at the same rate as men

Um, no.

191 male to female transexuals had the same "risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls".

Not rape. Not murder. Not all "men who call themselves women". Not "more likely to DO it", but more likely to be convicted.

191 individuals.

Any crime, or any violent crime.

More likely to be convicted.

Do we need to go into what a tiny, TINY number of people 191 is even amongst the trans population of Sweden, let alone the population at large?

And that's before you even remember even THIS was only true of the people who transitioned BEFORE 1989, not more recently!!

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

I really do wish everyone would stop peddling this tenuous bullshit as if it were fact.

Hanging, men commit 90% of violent crime and 98% of sex crime. Transition doesn't change that: men who identify as women
continue to commit male pattern crime. In fact over 50% of transwomen in prison are there for such crimes, a far higher percentage than in the general male prison population. There are currently no transmen in prison.

This is one reason women object to having males in women only spaces, because it makes no difference how those males identify.

If this sort of straightforward, factual information is likely to prompt anyone to attempt suicide their mental health seems a far bigger issue than their gender identity.

You can't expect people to avoid subjects that are of such importance to us on the basis that their MH is too fragile to be exposed to dissent.

I appreciate that you're not saying your friend will commit suicide if they read anything that's not wholly supportive of trans ideology. However claims that trans people will kill themselves if we don't nod along is sadly all too common in this debate.

I did find this, while searching for your website. Very interesting, it is a study about parts of America that allow you to use the restroom based on gender identity rather than biology. -

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna911106

Transcrimeuk.com

I didnt know the adress, it took about 4 seconds to google.

Did you know transwomen in the UK are statistically more likely to murder someone than be murdered?

If her safety were to be conpromised in the mens, then its about time men were held accountable for their actions instead of women. Men need to get over the fact that some people with a penis like to wear dresses and make up. Its the men who need to be educated here, not women

Absolutely this. Why is the default response to the threat of male violence that women have to adapt and accommodate, rather than that toxic masculinity needs to be tackled? Oh yeah, because it's a fucking patriarchal world so we get to put up and shut up while the dominant sex get to carry on regardless.

That transcrime website is the worst thing I've ever seen on MN. That anyone can signpost others to it with a straight face is beyond me, but at least it makes one's agenda clear. As clear as it would be if I pointed someone to "immigrant crime", or "black crime", or "Irish crime".

transcrimeuk.com

Nothing to see here.

Testosterone levels are not the only measure of male advantage in womens sport. Their bodies are just different to females and they should not compete together.

So if allowing men to use womens spaces has no effect on crime rates, why do it?
Why remove sex segregation?

Theres been thousands of cases of abuse in Target changing rooms, why should those abused women and girls then have to be triggered sharing loos with men?

So if allowing men to use womens spaces has no effect on crime rates, why do it?
Why remove sex segregation?

Theres been thousands of cases of abuse in Target changing rooms, why should those abused women and girls then have to be triggered sharing loos with men?

Rat thats because you want to cover up sexual abuse.

A bit like how the Rotherham scandal was covered up because of worries about racism.

When people are raping and mudering others we need to name the problem.

That photo is an absolute classic fairenuff. We like to play spot the bloke with that one. No blokes here hiding in plain sight. No madam. Your eyes must be deceiving you ;-)

That transcrime website is the worst thing I've ever seen on MN.

Yeah I can see how the truth doesn't fit your agenda Rat. Oh well. Truth hurts eh.

God the language towards trans on that website is awful (as well as the content!) . Any rape/murder is too many, obviously. However given there was only 1 Trans person committed of murder and that was whilst in a psychiatric hospital - your comment was false in that respect. the stats also include cross dressers and not just based on ‘legally defined’ trans people. As I say though you cannot judge a whole community by the bad people inside it.

What did you think of my link? If studys show that trans people using woman’s facilities create no extra danger to woman in terms of reports, why is it so wrong to allow trans people to use the toilet of their choice? You ask why, because if someone has gender dysphoria and believes they are a man or woman, has taken steps to live as their desired sex, why do you wish to exclude them? If study’s show they are no threat to women? Why do you want to deny them that?

Your comment about ‘thousands’ of abuse victims in target, is also misinformed.

Why do you want to deny my daughter and I single sex spaces? Why?

God the language towards trans on that website is awful (as well as the content!)

The language is an issue? Really?

In what context is the language describing the male pattern crimes 'awful'?

Every single statistic points to safety not being a valid concern in regards to toilets. You maythinkinclusive toilets will make you
unsafe, but the actual evidence says otherwise

Great, so they can use the men's.

Prisons of all places have the facilities to isolate and restrict any offenders who are considered a risk to other inmates for whatever reason
See Karen white to know this isn't true.

Do you think that prisons should be segregated by race so that people don’t have to share with people who have committed racially motivated violence? Or would you expect people at risk from those offenders to be kept safe within the prison?

I don't see how race keeps being conflated with sex. So are you saying we can change our race by just saying so?

What is an extra danger?

Have you any idea how scary and threatening it is for women who say NO repeatedly to sharing spaces with males to walk in a female space and see a male?

You talk about legal trans, what do you mean?
We cant ask to see a GRC so what is a difference?

Males want to share spaces with females.

Females dont want to share spaces with males.

Why do you think women should not be allowed to say no?

(Also theres far more than one transwoman murderer, google is your friend here. Although theres so many crimes Im not suprised they cant keep up).

Can you please show your sources? That legally recognised transgender woman continue to rape and murder at the same rate as men?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

"A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.'

So about 48% of current known trans criminals in England and Wales are convicted sex offenders?

To answer more clearly...

You ask why is it so wrong for transpeople to use the space of their choice.

Its wrong if it means females can no longer use the space of their choice.

If transwomen wanted spaces for transwomen, thatd be fine.

But they dont. They want to remove female spaces. Thats the problem.

I'm not going to enter into a discussion about the Swedish study, RatRolyPoly.

If we're talking numbers, let's look at current data from the UK. Men commit the overwhelming majority of sex and violent crime. This is not affected by transition: in fact men who identify as women appear to offend at an even higher rate than ordinary men. The sterling work done by Trans Crime UK illustrates this very clearly.

Fair Play for Women have done useful research that shows that 50% of the transwomen in prison are there for sex and violent crime. That's a far higher percentage than you'd find in the general male prison population.

There are presumably a number of factors governing these very troubling statistics. One is surely that cross dressing is the most common paraphilia among sex offenders.

There are 120 women in prison for sex crimes. There are 14 THOUSAND men. The difference in crime rates is very dramatic. This truth underlies sex segregation in situations where women are partly or fully naked or otherwise vulnerable. Until and unless male violence and sexual aggression are curbed we'd be insane to get rid of women only spaces.