Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

Yeah, so do I. Outside of here too. All I'm saying is don't just rely on the feminism board is there is a massive echo chamber in there if you don't agree.

I think plenty of us read outside of here. I've spent the last year reading and debating this subject. Solidly. Yet only a small percentage of my time is spent here. Mum'snetter do travel outside of mumsnet you know.

I too read both sides, and one has no answer other than name calling

Won't argue with that; I asked sackrifice whether men were more violent because of biological differences or because of societally imposed gender stereotypes and I'm yet to hear back. I'd rather no response than the personal attacks I usually come in for though, so I'm not complaining!

Olennas I must just hit up Google when I first came into this debate and tried to find evidence both for and against anything anybody told me. That's how I came to the position I find myself in now. If you want the sort of the opposite of mumsnet fwr there are a million feminist groups with a social media presence; the ones that have been around a while are pretty exclusively trans inclusive. There are also plenty specifically opposing trans-exclusionary feminism. That gives a good counter if that's what you're looking for.

Won't argue with that; I asked sackrifice whether men were more violent because of biological differences or because of societally imposed gender stereotypes and I'm yet to hear back. I'd rather no response than the personal attacks I usually come in for though, so I'm not complaining!

I asked you first, whether you think that men who say they are women automatically become no threat to women.

This is nothing to do with the reasoning behind them being a threat. It is not the place for a nature/nurture thesis. It is you that are saying there is no problem, so explain why there is not problem.

The floor has been yours for months, and there has been a deathly silence, with you unable to explain why you think women should just not be bothered about men in womens' and girls' spaces.

Here's my rationale. At least one of these people is a MN user. No, these people should not be able to access womens' and girls' spaces.

What is your rationale to saying 'there is no problem here'?

I literally have hundreds of examples if you want them. The male rage just cannot be contained.

Thats rather like a nature/nurture argument. Does anyone know? How on earth would you expect women to know why males act the way they do?

So Rat Ive asled you many times before and never recieved an answer.

Why is it a trans right to remove sex segregation from females?

i can see both sides of the argument, but it does seem that a few people are saying, or this is just how it comes across, that EVREY transwomen is a rapist/sex offender its unfair that these few few transwomen give evrey transwomen a bad name

or this is just how it comes across, that EVREY transwomen is a rapist/sex offender its unfair that these few few transwomen give evrey transwomen a bad name

No, it is just that - like with men - nobody can tell.

Which is the point. It is why there are sex segregated spaces in the first place...because females don't know which males are harmless and which are a threat. And why women who point this out are witches/evil/T*RFs/today's popular slur.

I dont believe that for a minute.

I believe transwomen offend at the same rate as males, as they are male.

Some males (trans or not) are wonderful amazing people. Some are not. They commit 94% ofall violent crimes and 98% of all sexual abuse. So I choose not to share spaces with them where I need to undress.

Simple answer to this..penis use the mens, no penis use the womans

The floor has been yours for months, and there has been a deathly silence, with you unable to explain why you think women should just not be bothered about men in womens' and girls' spaces.

Well actually I've been recovering from rather a devastating criminal offence over the last few months so it's hardly been my priority. Literally nothing anybody's alert on this thread hasn't been answered by myself and others time and time again though. Use Advanced Search. Or even Google! Someone was determined I hadn't told them what I thought a woman was at over point, but seeing as you can literally Google "RatRolyPoly Mumsnet definition woman" I think you can take my word for that.

If your really super struggling to talk through some specific point though, please do @mention me, I really do want to hash this out with people of different opinions. It is rather tedious though to spend half my time being accused of giving too many answers and the other half being accused of giving too few.

So please, instead of forever saying no-one can ever answer these questions because no-one is as clever as those stunning and brave phenomenally intelligent women on FWR, do know that isn't true. We do. We have. You may still disagree with us, and I have absolutely no issue with that, but I for one am not a brainless dullard I'm afraid. And whilst I don't need you to confirm that for me, it do feel the need to point it out.

or this is just how it comes across, that EVREY transwomen is a rapist/sex offender its unfair that these few few transwomen give evrey transwomen a bad name

I don't think anybody is saying that. I doubt anyone here has anything against trans people. I certainly don't. But not having an issue with someone and not wanting to give up my rights and safety are two different things. Unfortunately there are plenty of people will and do take advantage of self ID for their own gain. This throws woman and some trans people under the bus. But as we can't tell the difference between people and their motives, the line has to be drawn somewhere. This means no people with penises in woman's safe spaces. Because the alternative puts woman at risk. The loud aggressive shouting TRAs haven't done anyone any favours, but then I don't think they really care that much.

yes. it a third choice. simple.

@RatRolyPoly can you explain why its a trans right to remove sex segregation?

Ta.

As for your definition of women, as has been pointed out a million times, its circular and doesnt make sense.

What a gabel? Its something that identifies as a gabel. Does that enlighten you? No.

Gabel is a German word for a three pronged eating utensil, used in conjunction with a knife.

See how definitions work?

If your really super struggling to talk through some specific point though, please do @mention me, I really do want to hash this out with people of different opinions. It is rather tedious though to spend half my time being accused of giving too many answers and the other half being accused of giving too few.

I am not 'super' struggling on any point.

I know full well the dangers of men.

I know full well they should be out of female spaces.

If it is tedious to explain why men saying they are women makes them no threat to women, over and over, perhaps just cut and paste your previous answers, or post a link?

I think men who say they are women are no threat to women because ...

I think it is a trans right to remove sex segregation because...

Just fill in the gaps. It could not be easier. Show us your workings out.

Well Hyppolyta, I'm afraid we disagree about the function of word definitions. If you're interested in this sort of thing you could look more into the philosophy of language; I don't mean to assume it isn't something you won't have read about, it's just I don't think many people have, and what you've written does seem to imply you're with the majority

"The meaning of a word is its use in a language" is a common summary of Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations.

can you explain why its a trans right to remove sex segregation?

I don't think anybody does think that, do they? This sounds like the kind of question that's cobbled together the perceived effect of an action and repurposed it as intent. What part of my position (or that of someone like me) do you actually have a question about? Because this is just as pointless as me asking you why you hate trans people. It's repurposing perceived effect as intent, and it's disingenuous.

Lol.

Ok,so what are the right trans people want?

The right to use gendered spaces?
As long as that isnt impacting on fenale spaces thats grand!

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of words... yes words can and do change in usage, but they still have meanings.

Yeah, so do I. Outside of here too. All I'm saying is don't just rely on the feminism board is there is a massive echo chamber in there if you don't agree.but learn a bit more and read both sides and you see how bad it is

Im assuming you didnt mean to be so patronising there

Or did you seriously think i only ever read mumsnet

but it does seem that a few people are saying, or this is just how it comes across, that EVREY transwomen is a rapist/sex offender

And no one has said that either

@RatRolyPoly - I dont' find just googling particularly helpful for finding good discussion sites or sources of reasonably authoritative info. I've occasionally wandered onto Reddit GC, but find it a bit too rough and tumble for my liking (with outright transphobia - it's curious why MN comes in for so much flak given the content of sites like Reddit, 4chan etc). The trans bits of Reddit are eye-opening for different reasons (I am very good and resist the urge to tell the poor sods on the subReddit for asking whether they they pass that they don't pass in any way, shape or form, no matter how much their cheerleaders assure them that they look "awesome, hun")

As I've said before, I'm a Bad Feminist, so I don't frequent other feminist sites much outside of FWR, so a steer towards trans inclusive sites that have actually critically considered the issue of transwomen and their impact on women and girls would be helpful too

i can see both sides of the argument, but it does seem that a few people are saying, or this is just how it comes across, that EVREY transwomen is a rapist/sex offender its unfair that these few few transwomen give evrey transwomen a bad name

I agree with that.

Strange, most of us dont seem to be able to see those posts.

Can you screenshot them?

Or is that impossible because they dont actually exist, its just a rather pathetic attempt to ignore all the very relevant points that have been made?

I doubt anyone here has anything against trans people

Some do, and one has said as much.

Bold fail

So it isnt most the thread, its one post.

So if this post os real, and not just in your head, is it possible to screenshot or link to it?