Mmr and links to austim

[Michelle38wales]

Do you think there’s a link with mmr and austim, I’ve already 3 children with austim so not sure about my baby having it

Ah thanks @PurpleDaisies was thinking it was being banned for health reasons from that post. That extra info makes a lot more sense!

The message can't be clear and unambiguous until you can demonstrate what does cause autism.

I just don't agree with it. I think it's incredibly arrogant and shows a dangerous disregard for the thoughts and feelings of the people your trying vaccinate. What does? Multi cohort, longitudinal research that shows that complete uptake of individual medicines, including vaccines, is far less than that of single dosage medicines?

You mean "It doesn't pander to people who prefer to believe an out and out charlatan who designed their fears to line his own pockets"?

Gah I can't tear myself away enough from mumsnet but I will to get on...

I don't think now the NHS should offer single vaccines. In 2018

I do think they should have during the height of the scare and made it clear that the changeover to MMR was a cost thing. Single vaccines weren't withdrawn because they had any safety issues - just we had already bought the MMR which was cheaper

I do think that anyone who still has worries (even unfounded ones) has a responsibility to vaccinate privately if they want them and it's a good idea to keep offering them privately for that reason.

I don't think saying you would if they were on the NHS is very valid- they aren't because of cost. If it worries you enough to refuse the MMR, surely you are worried enough to pay even if it means it takes you some saving.

All these people who can't afford vaccines for their kids yet can afford to go on a holiday or wear new clothes etc... I think it just shows priorities

I've gone from being able to afford private healthcare to being a single disabled mum... I know what being on the breadline is. I still know where my priorities are with my child's health although I was once a loon, I have been educated

The message can't be clear and unambiguous until you can demonstrate what does cause autism. What, like Rubella, the R in MMR?

It's a multi cause condition with environmental, biologic, and genetic factors. Will you wait until every single combination of otherwise harmless conditions and occurrences has been ruled out?

I agree, the original "research" was debunked.

I did find evidence that suggested there was a concern aboit overloading an immune system with 3 vaccines at once and that they would be better spaced out. I can't be bothered to find it now.

We tried to have a proper chat with the HV about overloading but she wouldn't and just kept talking about autism even after we'd made it perfectly clear we knew that wasn't a risk and weren't concerned about that.

Sorry. I should RTFT.

It is unambiguous!!! There is no link between MMR and autism.

It makes no sense to say "we don't know what does cause autism so there is still a chance that the MMR is linked"

You might as well say that eating bananas during pregnancy could be linked because no one has proved it isn't.

Strangely enough CMV causes more disability than rubella in exposed pregnancies. CMV is far more likely to be implicated in autism than the MMR (which we KNOW isn't)

Yet nobody ever talks or knows about it. We don't yet have a vaccine...

Erm no but I think it can exacerbate the associated bowel condition in children with ASD and like all vaccines comes with various other risks.
Not having mmr obviously means you risk the viruses (though having mmr isn’t a guarantee you wont). There’s a real risk of getting measles as it hasn’t been eradicated. My non mmr vaccinated DC got measles.
You have to work out whether you feel the vaccine or virus is a bigger risk to your baby

Oh! I had that 'overload' in the Myth Folder, Sparking Based on the obvious fact that babies immune systems are perfectly capable of coping with all the antigens, fungi, parasites, bacteria, and viruses they are exposed to every day, they are far stronger than many think.

There's been a lot of research on it, hold on... Oxford, VKP

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/combination-vaccines-and-multiple-vaccinations

There is no link. In your case OP I would suspect that it's genetic. In my case DS2 has a diagnosis, so does my dad. The likelihood is that I'm undiagnosed and it's genetic in my family too.

We have friends who have autistic children. One of them gets very upset because her mother is convinced that her son "caught" his autism from the MMR vaccination. She beats herself up about it, wondering whether his autism is her fault. That's both very wrong and very sad.

Excellent link @CuriousaboutSamphire

It's a god project, independent and focussed on responding to the fears of parents.

Wish I'd remembered it sooner, maybe back on page 1

It's a good project, sorry

Wakefield's paper proposed a link between Autism and the MMR vaccine.
12 other people were involved, some of whom were also found guilty. We don't hear about them because they have not gone on to live the high profile lifestyle that Wakefield has chosen.

I would really like to be pro-vaccine, my DCs are vaccinated.

I do wonder, however, why the government has set up a scheme to compensate vaccine-damaged individuals if there is really no evidence that vaccines have the potential to cause damage?

This thread has comments about two issues

We are saying there is no link between MMR and autism not that no child reacts to vaccines

A tiny minority of children do have severe adverse reactions to vaccinations. And this is devastating. But statistically the risks associated with being unvaccinated exceed the risks associated with vaccines

Does that clarify why there is a fund? @TheTroublesomestTribble

Thanks @CuriousaboutSamphire. I will take a look at that. She's 9 now and she had the MMR. I just remember being v. frustrated about not being able to have a proper chat with the HV.

Sparking

I found the same thing... it pushed me to the antivax nonsense initially because they were the ones willing to listen and explain and talk and on the face of it seemed more informed

My NHS GP was talking about Wakefield and autism when I was talking about the first set of jabs... just seemed like she was parroting a party line and not listening to the question

But the NHS is stretched and a ten minute appointment I don't think can do much to counteract fears

I really do think it would improve vaccination rates if those who had concerns weren't rolled eyes at and told about Wakefield... for me that's what it took, a medical professional really listening, discussing it, and then counteracting my fears with actual research. His 30 minutes and several emails... got me to vaccinate

Her 2 minute roll eye and moan about Wakefield... stopped me from vaccinating to begin with

I don't really know how it can be sorted in a stretched NHS but I do think some HCPs aren't helping things with their reactions to concerned new parents

I'd rather people were vaccinating than being backwards snobbish about those who choose to pay to have access to what a few months prior the NHS would have been prescribing to them

Wow, you’re determined to miss the point.

I have no problem with people using private healthcare. Heck, I have private healthcare myself and use it where I can, to free up resource within the NHS.

What I have a problem with is private healthcare providers playing on fears of people and creating their own market by saying “hey, you know that thing that’s not really a problem? Come and pay us to solve that not problem at 50 quid a shot (oh and by the way you need 6 of them)”. And did it with a vaccine unlicensed in the U.K. They pretended they were part of a solution instead of being decent doctors and joining the voices who were speaking out against Wakefield. That’s the problem.

No I'm not ... I just really like the doctor who converted me from being an anti vaxxer. I also don't think there's anything wrong with seeing a gap in the market when you're a business...

There's several people I know who would still be anti vaxxers without him.

And the vaccines weren't horrendous prices, yes they were expensive compared to free but I certainly wasn't told to have any more doses than necessary to complete a course. I wasn't bullied in any way... he took the time and is able not to talk to you like you're stupid even if he might have thought privately I was barmy initially

The vaccines were the same as the ones the NHS had ffs  no dubious safety issues with offering them

Now I think about it though I think I did use the MenB before it was lisenced for all children in the U.K. I think it was approved in special cases prior...

About 6 months after I used it, it was on the NHS schedule but my child missed the age group it was rolled out to.

I remember us having a chat about it, it certainly wasn't something he didn't inform me about before I chose to use it.