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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
Shriek · 05/11/2018 23:55

But, hello, this isn't a trans thread; well it wasn't.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 23:58

No, it's not a trans thread, but it's the same principle. If you're on a thread saying you take offence at something whilst completely ignoring your views and name is offensive to a lot, how is that any different?

Shriek · 06/11/2018 00:00

Well go and make a separate thread about it Verbeena its clearly doing your head in. Start a thread on it.

JeanPagett · 06/11/2018 00:01

It's a bit like: "If I say it's offensive then it's offensive. If other people say something is offensive, then it's up to me to decide if I agree with them."

Shriek · 06/11/2018 00:01

Aggain... Not taking offence ....racism!

VerbeenaBeeks · 06/11/2018 00:03

Well go and make a separate thread about it Verbeena its clearly doing your head in. Start a thread on it

I wasn't even the one who brought it up on the threads. Just agreeing with people who have.

JeanPagett · 06/11/2018 00:04

Apologies, I was just using the terminology from the OP "a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive". Substitute offensive for discriminatory by all means.

VerbeenaBeeks · 06/11/2018 00:05

It's a bit like: "If I say it's offensive then it's offensive. If other people say something is offensive, then it's up to me to decide if I agree with them."

Exactly. It's only offensive if I agree it is.

Lizzie48 · 06/11/2018 00:09

@Antigon

I actually didn't see the thread until I was alerted to it by your post. I've now posted on that thread, condemning that action now as despicable, and, as far as I'm concerned, it's a clear case of Islamophobia and racism, and totally disgusting.

And there are disgraceful comments about social tenants as well.

Please don't assume that if we don't comment on threads like that one that it means we don't care. Sometimes we just don't see it.

ginghambox · 06/11/2018 00:33

So its an anti Enlish thread.

OkPedro · 06/11/2018 00:45

How is it bigotry stating that humans can't change sex? Irish people are Irish. Trans people are trans. No bigotry to see here.

JeanPagett · 06/11/2018 00:49

But trans people think that is a discriminatory statement. And if anyone says that a phrase is discriminatory you have to accept that without question and never ever use it again. Apparently.

VerbeenaBeeks · 06/11/2018 00:52

@Antigon - It is strange that none of the people objecting to the phrase 'beyond the pale' as anti-Irish have posted in solidarity with victims of racism on the Grenfell Tower thread, where racists burnt an effigy of the tower with paper cut-outs of brown people, made references to women in hijab, with the English flag in the background.

I certainly would, as that's disgusting Sad I don't think I've seen that thread though so don't think I've commented on it.
Not always don't care, just sometimes not always seen.

Somerville · 06/11/2018 00:59

This thread has now become pretty much pointless, thanks to determined derailers. Yet more evidence that Irish women pointing out the bias and prejudice we’ve experienced and continue to recognise is very challenging to some.
The good thing is that through these threads more posters have become aware of the sectarian overtones, in my community, to beyond the pale and also many more of us have become motivated to report the anti-Irish prejudice on an ongoing basis.

Bluntness OP clearly wrote the thread about more than just one phrase. If you don’t think that its current use in NI as a sectarian term means it shouldn’t be used in TG’s then whatever, that’s fine (not that you need my permission) but can’t you see this is wider? There has been a barrage of thinly veiled prejudice lately that we recognise because we experience it all the time. But anyway, whether you can see where I’m coming from or not, I usually get on fine with you on here and I wasn’t making a dig at you.

Whichever numpty brought up the horrific Grenfell bonfire as if it’s evidence that the posters on this thread only care about Ireland, you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. Do you not know that we deal with our own bonfires, Year in, year out. One in Belfast said KILL ALL TAIGS, in July, and it wasn’t even taken down. In fact some politicians, feted by the stories, went and danced around it.
Racism and prejudice are awful in all their forms, but not having the time/capacity/knowledge/seeing that particular MN thread in order to speak up against every example of racism doesn’t negate people’s point when they speak up against one form of racism. And it’s absurd that somehow you think it does.

OkPedro · 06/11/2018 01:07

Well said somerville

VerbeenaBeeks · 06/11/2018 01:12

This thread has now become pretty much pointless, thanks to determined derailers

Don't know who you're referring to, but I was only ever agreeing with someone who said why is it only offensive if it applies to you. (Generic you.)
Posters who have said it's offensive, so needs to be taken down. Even though a big section of society will be upset with them.
Where do we stop policing offensiveness? It seems it can't be answered.

Somerville · 06/11/2018 01:18

Where do we stop policing offensiveness? It seems it can't be answered.
Why don’t you take that interesting question to debate on a thread about offensiveness. This thread is about anti-Irish prejudice and racism, and it is belittling and derailing to have it constantly brought back to taking offence.

Somerville · 06/11/2018 01:30

For example, I’m offended by Golliwogs. They don’t “apply” to me as I’m White Irish. But I’m offended because they are racially offensive. That is analogous to how I view the phrase in question, as it is used in my community as a racially offensive, sectarian slur. A somewhat milder version of words like taig. That doesn’t mean I just take offence to it like I do if someone calls something that is only personally offensive, like a twat.

Racial offence isn’t wrong because it might hurt someone’s feelings. It’s wrong because it’s racist.

AssignedSonAtBirth · 06/11/2018 01:35

When did we Irish become offended? Someone said some bad words ring the guards Confused

VerbeenaBeeks · 06/11/2018 01:40

This thread is about anti-Irish prejudice and racism, and it is belittling and derailing to have it constantly brought back to taking offence

The other thread about the same subject that IStandWithPosie was on with the same point on was actually entitled To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it.
It clearly is to a lot. That doesn't seem to register or matter though.

VerbeenaBeeks · 06/11/2018 01:44

As in Username and views expressed - offensive. Not derailing to point that out if you're on a thread taking offence at something, be sure to acknowledge that you're being offensive to a lot of people too so what's the difference?
Why does one group trump another?

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 05:40

@Antigon it’s interesting that you are wrong about no one posting from here on the Grenfell thread. I posted on it at 17 minutes past 8 last night.

Giantbanger Mon 05-Nov-18 20:17:20
Absolutely abhorrent.

Somerville · 06/11/2018 07:28

The other thread about the same subject that IStandWithPosie was on with the same point...

Confused If there is another thread that is titled in line with what it is you want to debate, then you could do so on that thread. Not bring discussion from another thread to this one to derail it.
AmericanHousewifefan · 06/11/2018 07:46

Xenia you said
"I would prefer free speech to prevail and if people do not like particular words or phrases then they could just choose not to go on to those discussions"

The problem is anti-Irish sentiment can rear its ugly head on any thread. Should we just avoid MN altogether?

Xenia · 06/11/2018 08:23

There isn't much anti Irish sentiment on the thread or on Mumnet or in England. However I support the rights of the people who raised the issue to write about it and MN owns the site and can censor anything they like.

I will continue to use Beyond the Pale as an expression of speech with its normal English meaning in my every day speech in England but if I see anyone Irish around I will not use it now I know it is has a special meaning in Ireland.

You could go the other way however and say now that the irish have learned from us that it doesn't mean what they thought for those of us who use it they can rest happy in their beds that anyone English using it on MN is not using it in that way just as you get vast differences in meaning between US and English English. We are united by a common language as much with Ireland as America.

People often are anti things on MN - just look at the anti working mothers and anti housewives debates we get and the things said against we full time working mothers or thsoe of us who pay school fees. We just take on the chin as part of the cut and thrust of discussion on line.