MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

There's a thread at the minute where an OP is worried about visiting her home country. She's a single mother which is not viewed as socially acceptable at home, and people coming back from the UK are expected to shower the extended family with expensive gifts.

Numerous people have suggested she must be from Ireland.

Wtf.

This is exactly the kind of thing that bothers me. Who on earth in this day and age thinks single parents are a novelty in Ireland, or that we're so impressed by people who work in the UK, and think they clearly have sooooo much money compared to those at home.

I haven't reported the posts, because let's face it, they haven't said anything directly against talk guidelines.

But Jesus fucking Christ.

I must be really stupid. I can't find any mention of beyond the pale in the talk guidelines.

It's been changed in the last day or two M3lon, following these threads.

I think precisely two people on that thread suggested the country in question was Ireland. Far more said an African country. But that’s fine isn’t it? Prejudice against Africans and black people clearly isn’t anything to get worked up over.

Well the obvious gap in standard of living between the UK and the OP's country clearly suggests a developing country to me. Not somewhere with a very similar (higher?) standard of living.

So people making prejudiced generalisations about developing countries is fine? Only prejudice against Ireland is troublesome?

Where on earth did I say that?

It is just galling. Some posters clearly believe that all of Africa is just like we see in the Live Aid footage from the eighties. It is nothing more than racism.

*LivLemler

It's been changed in the last day or two M3lon, following these threads.

Well, despite the lack of apology, they have made the right decision. It’s a pity they were unable to muster up the courage to offer an apology.

Well, despite the lack of apology, they have made the right decision. It’s a pity they were unable to muster up the courage to admit they were wrong.

I've just commented on that thread. Anyone who is making a guess as to what the country is, as far as I am they are showing their own prejudice, whether that is an assumption that it is Ireland or an African country or a mediterranean island.

I completely agree with you Novice. I don't see why being annoyed that someone thinks Ireland is a socially conservative, financially struggling backwater means I think that of all of Africa.

I’m not Irish but I stand with you. I’m mixed race and tbh there’s a level of racism/ignorance on MN that is generally left untackled and tolerated by MNHQ (unless posters complain) that really is disappointing to see.

I’m happy to be corrected and informed and apologise for (and not use again) language that I wasn’t aware is offensive to others - as I think most reasonable people on here do too. But MNHQ really need to address the unrepentant ‘well it doesn’t offend me’ ‘you just enjoy being offended’ ‘you just enjoy playing the race card’ crap.

Well it literally says in the talk guidelines "Remember, we do not pre-moderate posts. We rely on our members to let us know about any posts that break our Guidelines." So I'm not sure why you expect MN to proactively moderate racist posts.

I've reported that thread and suggested mods read it as an example of unconscious bias.

I have also posted on it, highlighting that I think some of the posters are displaying said bias and also prejudice.

Genuine question, what more am I expected to do?

When we haven't been told the country by the OP, it's understandable that posters speculate. It doesn't mean they're racist or prejudiced. A lot of Africa is very socially conservative, because of being deeply religious, whether Christian or Muslim. Catholic countries, particularly in South America, but also some of Eastern Europe, Central Asia. It's changing in Ireland, but it's hardly surprising that the reputation persists.

The Deep South of the USA is very socially conservative as well, for that matter.

I think that, in the majority of cases, posters are just being curious.

Jean I’ve seen plenty of threads condoning racism and I and posters have complained and those posts have been left to stand.

It isn't changing in Ireland, it has changed.

(And I feel the need to add, I can't challenge any of the other statements because I don't have the experience and knowledge to challenge them, not because I wouldn't challenge them if I had the knowledge to)

liv oh that's good!

I just would have expected a post to this thread from MNHQ saying they had done it. I got thrown by that not having happened.

Well I hope HQ are reading this thread, because it’s clear there is an overall problem on this website with low level (and some overt) racism/xenophobia directed lots of different nationalities and ethnicities. It looks like MNHQ have some work to do.

All right, it has changed, and beyond recognition. I take your point that the impression a lot of people have of Ireland and Irish people needs to be challenged.

Lizzie yes it does. I can - and will be much more - challenge the anti-Irish prejudice and attitudes and I can and do and will much more - challenge any other racist or discriminatory statements. I am genuinely doing my best, I posted on the Grenfell thread, I challenged that other thread this morning, and had already reported it to MN before I posted on it. There's only so much I can do, and so much I see. Some of what someone from a different ethnicity and experience to me will be able to pick up on, I will miss, because everyone has unconscious bias. I do my best to mitigate my own, but I'm not perfect and I miss some things.

I'm also not on every thread on here and sometimes I am hardly on here at all.

They don't have work to do as under the law and under their terms and ocnditions they just have to remove material brought to their attention where they decide to do so. There is no duty to check posts before they are posted or be reading them all, thankfully. We are not quite like China yet although we are getting there with all this censorship around.

I think we are all very clear now that it is better not to mention Ireland nor go anywhere near an Irish thread.

They don't have work to do as under the law and under their terms and ocnditions they just have to remove material brought to their attention where they decide to do so.

Indeed, but they’re not doing it. They’re leaving threads to stand because theyre “interesting” and telling people to be polite to the goady OP. And that’s just one thread. So yes. Lots more work to do.

I think we are all very clear now that it is better not to mention Ireland nor go anywhere near an Irish thread.

What’s wrong with you?

I think we are all very clear now that it is better not to mention Ireland nor go anywhere near an Irish thread.

And yet, Xenia, here you are.