Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
SilentIsla · 06/11/2018 12:35

The use of a derogatory expression in the forum guidelines IS down to Mumsnet, the organisation, though. They should ensure they take more care when wording such guidelines. A little education would help considerably too. Hmm

SilentIsla · 06/11/2018 12:37

Xenia - 🙄

Somerville · 06/11/2018 12:46

Wow, great that they've changed it!

Weird that the last we heard from them was "yes we know it has racist origins BUT..." and now it's quickly changed?!

JaneJeffer · 06/11/2018 13:02

I think we are all very clear now that it is better not to mention Ireland nor go anywhere near an Irish thread.
We'll miss your wonderful contributions...

Raydan · 06/11/2018 13:16

We'll miss your wonderful contributions...

😂

LivLemler · 06/11/2018 13:19

Somerville - MNHQ commented on the site stuff thread yesterday.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 13:37

Xenia Why do you goad like this? It's an obviously inflammatory statement, and you really do keep making offensive statements. Do you know why you have to keep doing that?

Noviceoftheweek · 06/11/2018 13:57

I don’t believe Xenia is goading. I think she simply recognises that the comments about Ireland and Irish people are nothing compared to those thrown around, day after day, about black women like me. It is exhausting and infuriating.

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 14:21

Why is it a race to the bottom Novice? Why does racism against black people mean that racism against the Irish is diminished or vice versa? The one does not negate the other, surely?

I was searched, at an airport, in a public area I had a security guard shove her fingers right in my vagina - purely because I was Irish. Had my car emptied on to the road and had to repack it myself with two very young boys in the car. Had a colleague call something "Irish" because it didn't work.

None of that in any way means that racism towards anyone else is excused, but please don't minimise my experience. It was and is racism and I should be allowed to call it that.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 14:30

comments about Ireland and Irish people are nothing compared to those thrown around, day after day, about black women like me
This isn't your fight, and its horrible sentiment that it's some sort of sick competition. Her comment was totally unrelated to that, so I don't know where this comes from because it simply doesn't relate to what Xenia said. She made a racist comment on avoiding the Irish. What if she'd said, I'm avoiding the blacks? One is not worse than the other. They are both horrendous! What if a male said women are subservient? It's all horrendous prejudice. Nobody should have to justify this,and your argument just doesn't hold water.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 14:35

Giantbanger I am horrified at your being intimately searched in a public area, what is the justification for this, did you see, get to see, any paperwork on this? I am so shocked that this happened,and I am horrified that others try to push their cause forward over that of Irish oppression.

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 14:39

I had black bootcut trousers on that were part of a suit (work trip) I was with English people (work colleagues) and I was pulled to one side and her fingers were right inside me. I was the only person travelling on an Irish passport and it happened in a UK airport. Her searching of me was completely unacceptable and she smirked at me the whole time. I made a complaint and got an apology off the airport, but apparently they couldn't locate the incident on their CCTV.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 14:42

I am really not understand ing what exactly is so infuriating [extreme] and exhausting [also extreme] about someone Irish saying its shit for them? How is this in any way infuriating for you? What makes you cross about it? Is it that you believe they are somehow detracting from the racism black people experience? There isn't only one pot for this, the Irish are not stealing it from you. How exactly is it exhausting. I simply don't understand, but its certainly nothing to do with Xenia 's comment

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 14:42

Teh trousers were loose (I've lost a lot of weight and was wearing a suit approx 2 sixes too big).

But hey it can't be as bad as what anyone else has experienced buecase I'm only Irish.

I had my money thrown at me in a pub in Birmingham and told to get out when I (accidentally)tried to pay with a Bank of Ireland note. That was about 10 years or so ago.

I've been mocked for my name and my accent, often. Top o the mornin to ye and all - leprechaun because I am short - I could go on and on - 1980s no Irish signs in London and that was the days of a completely different boarding gate for Irish flights miles away from anywhere and we had different security for the Irish flights to what any other flight ever had.

Do not, please, minimise my lived experience. It's really racist to do that. As well as offensive, and othering and rude.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 14:43

A public apology is the only way forward for this, that was rape

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 14:47

It was assault, in my view, but it wasn't rape.

I got an apology, but they couldn't take any further action because they couldn't identify where and when it happened.

That's what I mean though - that's what we go through - and it doesn't in any way diminish what happens to anyone else. It's not reductive - one does not reduce the other.

I can't prove it happened to me because I was on an Irish passport either. It could have been completely random.

IStandWithPosie · 06/11/2018 14:53

Sad giant. I am so sorry.

OP posts:
Shriek · 06/11/2018 14:57

This is the first place to start, you were surrounded by witnesses..the police need to properly investigate because of course everywhere is on CCTV in airports. By very trivial comparison the ombudsman invesitgated my being defrauded of money from a service provider, they had deleted pertinent sections of telephone recordings of our convo's. Because they had deleted, there was erasure of evidence, they were fined.
It's not the same,nowhere near, but you do need to escalate and expose this, as this could in theory be happening to anyone,and penetration is rape

MarDhea · 06/11/2018 14:57

banger was that the old Heathrow gate that was miles from anywhere and only for Irish flights? Where airport security used to be as aggressive and intimidating as possible, including to children and the Aer Lingus crew? If so, yours isn't the first anti-Irish story I've heard about that airport, but it's the first sexual assault.

I'm sorry it happened to you Thanks

Shriek · 06/11/2018 14:59

It doesn't matter it happened and the police have to investigate, you were assaulted.
Fight for that, expose it...report it to the police, insist on investigation, that must never happen again. The woman conducting that should be sacked.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 15:00

Go to papers too, as its the only way maybe to highlight this!

JeanPagett · 06/11/2018 15:00

I'm sorry for your experience Giant, but assuming it happened to you because you were travelling on an Irish passport seems quite an allegation.

It certainly wasn't rape Shriek (s.1 SOA 2003).

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/11/2018 15:01

@Giantbanger - I am appalled that that happened to you. And I really hope that @Noviceoftheweek acknowledges that this was racism, and that she will stop minimising your experiences - and may even offer an apology.

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 15:11

Shriek I can't prove it and I can't prove it was anything to do with my passport or nationality. I have no case and I was so shocked at the time I didn't even think to report it I was on my way to a work thing with colleagues and completely mortified and embarrassed and just wanted to get away.
I hate to see the way racism towards us is reduced on here and we are told it isn't as bad as what a black person suffers. Don't dare tell me that. I was refused service. My money is refused - there isn't a Northern Irish person who doesn't change their legal tender before they go across the water. My accent is mocked. My name is mocked. All the lazy jokes and tropes and stereotypes.

No one has the right to tell me it's less upsetting to me becuase I'm white.

Giantbanger · 06/11/2018 15:15

Jean I know I can't prove it was because of my nationality and the passport I was travelling on, I said that.

Unless you experienced that heathrow gate in the days of the special arrangements for Irish flights, I don't think you can appreciate how ingrained the fear is - it hasn't left me even all these years later - the most recent incident of me being searched was only a few years ago, but I've had suitcase emptied on the table and me having to repack it (and at the port at Stranraer too when going as a foot passenger and having the car searched at Larne and basically emptied onto the ground with me and two children in the car - I was a woman travelling alone).

I am not saying my experience is worse than anyone elses, any racism is unacceptable but I find the whole minimising of the Irish experience really strange. It's not a race to the bottom. One doesn't minimise the other. Saying I experienced it doesn't mean someone else can't either.