To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

YANBU. Especially considering the context in which it's being used.

I didn't know that and am glad to have learned it.

If it's hurtful to people of course it should be changed. There are plenty of other words and phrases in the language that can be used to mean the exact same thing.

Just because you claim something offends you doesn't automatically make it offensive.

I could claim that "hello" was offensive. But it isn't. So for me to have the power to ban it just on my say so that it offended me would be ridiculous. People can use whatever phrasing they like.

Yes, you are being U. It's a phrase that's in common usage, but I can't imagine ANYONE would know about the background you describe, and consequently not offensive. People are only too ready to be offended by anything and everything these days.

but I can't imagine ANYONE would know about the background you describe

Well, it's common knowledge in Ireland. Do those people not count as being 'anyone'?

Gosh, I had no idea.

I always thought it was "beyond the pail" and was something to do with buckets, and possibly cows... I feel very stupid now, but as they say - every day's a school day!

@Singlenotsingle
Almost all people in Ireland would find this phrase offensive. Mumsnet is not just used by people in the UK. So mumsnet HQ should change their phrasing.
OP you not bu.

I agree, they should stop using it. It is very clear why it would be offensive to Irish people.

It actually refers to the Pale of Settlement an area of Russia where Jews were forced to settle.

It's a phrase that's in common usage

Where and by who?

Just because you claim something offends you doesn't automatically make it offensive.

I could claim that "hello" was offensive.

You could, and then people would ask you to explain why it was offensive, can you explain why it’s offensive to you? The OP has explained why the phrase in the OP is offensive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoff_Settlement

YABU for assuming that “beyond the pale” refers to the Irish Pale. Pale comes from the Latin pālus meaning 'stake'; it means a stake fence and the area inside it. So “beyond the pale” simply means "outside the boundary".

The first use of the phrase was around the 17th century, which is very late if it refers to the Irish Pale, which was in the Middle Ages starting around 1450. The phrase could equally originate from the English Pale of Calais in France. And there have been a number of other Pales, such as the Pale of Russia.

It also refers to the Pale of Settlement an area of Russia where Jews were forced to settle.

Fixed that for you.

You’re absolutely not being unreasonable. Have MNHQ given reasons for their refusal to change the language?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-pale-of-settlement

Just because you claim something offends you doesn't automatically make it offensive.

I agree with this, but I sympathise with the op’s point. I hate “cretin” and “moron” because of their roots in mental retardation but not everyone takes the same view on here (including MNHQ). Hopefully in real life, if someone found a particular word offensive, people would more seriously consider not using it.

www.dictionary.com/browse/beyond--the--pale

Onatree but “hello” is a daily necessity, and OP isn’t asking for BTP to be removed on a whim. She has given good reason for it, and people can certainly live without using the phrase once they understand the origins. I can’t say I’ve used it often, but now I understand how offensive it is, I won’t use it. I expect MNHQ to remove it from their wording really, as it’s been explained clearly enough why it’s so offensive. I’m always shocked at how tone deaf people can be when it comes to Irish history. Again, I hadn’t realised it’s meaning, but now that I do I’m not going to insist on using it and refuse to believe that it’s genuinely offensive.

So there are multiple examples of the phrase in this post, with no Irish connotation, and use of it with no reference to anyone Irish. So the origin is murky, with no real proof it's origins are as OP says. So no. I don't agree it's an inherently racist phrase as it could be Latin, Russian, or Irish.

so because it was also used for other areas of pale it mustn’t be true that it was used for the english pale in Ireland? Really?

The English pale absolutely did exist in Ireland, are you really saying it didn’t?

OP:
YANBU. Absolutely they should not use that expression. You can not pick and choose what is racist and unacceptable. Surely that is a given.That they should continue using it is hugely ironic.

Education is a wonderful thing.

Thing is, most British people are completely unaware of the origin & history of that phrase and do not realise that it is deeply offensive to many Irish people.

I myself hadn't a clue until I moved to Ireland & found out the meaning.

I agree with you OP. I think it is inappropriate and should be removed from the MNHQ guidelines.

It shouldn't be too hard to find a different form of words.

I have never regularly used the phrase "calling a spade a spade" but would have done so in an innocuous fashion, based on the original meaning "to tell it like it is" coined by Erasmus.

However, a poster on Mumsnet raised the issue that as "spade" has become a racial slur in the past century, the phrase has taken on a darker meaning.

This never would have occurred to me and I am now conscious of never using the phrase.