To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

The common understanding of it is in relation to Ireland not in relation to other countries.

It's referring to the latin use of pale...

Many words have many different meanings.

And fwiw the fact it has other origins as well as the English pale in Ireland is serving well to highlight the potential for offence in using this phrase.

But the English aren’t actually racist towards the Irish anymore are they? Clearly there was a time when it would have been used with a double meaning (one of which was racist) in mind but surely today it has reverted back to its original meaning?

The Pale is a boundary (e.g. pairings round something). Historically there are various 'Pales' and living outside the boundary meant you were not living according to the 'norms' inside the boundary.
Can't see the phrase 'beyond The Pale' being racist, but can see it being a sensitive issue in places like Ireland given the context.

However, they insist on using this phrase

I find this phrase deeply offensive. Please ask for you thread to be removed.

YANBU. It's not hard to not use language people find offensive. I had a thread on here not long ago where the phrase "deaf and dumb" was discussed. A poster who's hard of hearing said this was very offensive to many deaf people and it shouldn't be used. Cue loads of posters "but it's NOT offensive" and one person who even said "how do we know you're even deaf?" 🙄

Yes, there are other origins but they are also offensive and as far as I understand meaning beyond civilisation whether that is anti-Irish or anti-semitic.

My concern is that Mumsnet accept the origins and accept that the origins are offensive but refuse to change their terminology as describing offensive language as ‘beyond the pale’.

I have used language unknowingly that others find offensive but once it is pointed out to me, I stop. So if ‘hello’ was offensive, I would say ‘hi’ instead. I would not insist on using it. Especially not as part of my Talk Guidelines. Why would you when it is unnecessary?

I have used language unknowingly that others find offensive but once it is pointed out to me, I stop.

Have you asked for you offensive OP to be removed?

donquixote can you explain where the offence comes from in the phrase you are offended by?

The original meaning in the colonial context was outside the boundary marking English civilisation with the great unwashed. The English ruled area of Ireland was known as the Pale for several centuries, so reverting back to the original meaning is offensive.

But again, why would you insist on using a phrase which you accept has some pejorative and racist connotations to describe whether language is acceptable or not?

donquixote can you explain where the offence comes from in the phrase you are offended by?

Honestly, it's too traumatic, but I think we all know. Also not the point. OP holds that any phrase deemed offensive should be deleted. Surely she should stick to her principles?

Well OP has been kind enough to explain where the offence comes from. She hasn’t just demanded it be removed without providing a valid justification of why it’s offensive.

Donquixote. Of course I don’t. I have explained that there is a particular reason why a phrase is offensive. I have given a reason and one which has been verified by other posters.

The consensus so far is that IANBU. I am looking forward to seeing a change in Mumsnet policy.

You've made me snigger OP.

I don't object to 'Beyond the Pale' on a cultural basis, even though I am of Irish Catholic heritage and understand its meaning. I would say that there are more modern offensive terms to describe Irish Catholics, but that is because I am English. An Irish person might disagree with me.

But it makes me laugh because it's just that it's so prim. Are MNHQ still doing it? It makes them sound like maiden aunts.

Likewise, some years ago when they declared 'moron' to be disablist language and suggested using 'idiot', which is from exactly the same archaic list of terms to describe mental disability.

I notice that 'moron' and also 'cretin' and my personal favourite 'imbecile' are still used here and often not deleted. Though I use them because I believe their usage has changed - like 'idiot' - I would not use them here except in this post because this is a community and many people in this community don't like them.

I'd hope that people who object to those terms will see my post as a one-off to try to explain things and not demand that it is deleted. If they do, I've saved and will just post again with the words asterisked out because it is an important point.

But the person who said it was okay to use 'idiot' and not other terms should have been made to write out 100 times: 'I will not make statements without looking things up.'

I had thought it was referencing "pale" as in when your face goes white because you're so shocked, and "beyond the pale" meant that it was even worse than that iyswin.

But YANBU because it clearly has a deeper history

The common understanding of it is in relation to Ireland not in relation to other countries.

Non-UK poster here. I've never heard it used in relation to Ireland or the Irish. Common perhaps in the UK, but maybe not in the rest of the world. Before today, if you put a gun to my head, I suppose that the only historical usage that I could come up with would be the Pale of Settlement in Russia. It's an innocuous phrase here (as is "calling a spade a spade".)

I have given a reason and one which has been verified by other posters.

I don't dispute the origin of the phrase. I was already familiar with it.

Of course I don’t.

Your OP suggests otherwise.

To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

Could you clarify then: who decides if a reason given is sufficient?

But the English aren’t actually racist towards the Irish anymore are they?

Don Quixote - who decides if a phrase is sufficient?

Obviously, that’s a trick question. But I certainly would not use a phrase which has dubious origins in my anti-racism guidelines.

If I was speaking to a person and knew they winced at a certain phrase, then i would choose a different phrase? Wouldn’t you? It’s just good manners.

Someone objected to the term 'nob-jockey' the other day with no context except for saying they had reported it to teacher.

Being of an inquiring mind I looked it up and realised it began as a slur against gay men. Who knew? I don't know whether that offending post has been deleted but I'd say that most people now see it as a mild insult to a man, probably straight, who is being a bit of a dick.

Strongly disagree with user 'almost all Irish people find it offensive'. I don't find it offensive in the least and have never heard it referred to as offensive before and have heard it used by Irish people Inc on national radio/television. I remember its definition and origin in our history book and it's just that, historical. I thought then and I still think how stupid/narrow minded of them but don't pay that mindset any heed as they were obviously wrong! That's my take on it anyway OP but yanbu to post and get feedback and if you're offended, you're offended but the people who came up with it are really not worth it.

Well u learn something new every day. I didn't know the meaning behind 'having a paddy' either

I'm Irish Catholic currently living in England

I don't believe this phrase is well known as to it's origins - so folk are just using it as a random phrase any intention behind it

I am more embarrassed by the mortally offended brigade. You could always solidify your concern by abandoning MN

There are so many things to spend time on, petition the government to do something about the starving homeless, if you want something to get on your high horse about...ykno, something worthwhile

Mikado - I don’t particularly get offended by it all the time, which is why my OP said raised eyebrows. I assume ignorance rather than offence.

However, it is Mumsnet’s stock phrase in its Talk guidelines to describe language as unacceptable. When queried they accept its origins but insist on their right to use it, and then say that they hope Irish people still feel welcome.

Frankly, that’s just not good enough.