To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

Yes so being behind the pale is bad. Which is what the phrase means. It’s not advocating what happened.

Irish born and bred here and heard the phrase "beyond the pale" used routinely and have never encountered anyone in the slightest bit bothered by it. To be honest the chippiness on some of the recent Irish threads was a bit weird and it felt like people were demanding to be offended!

To be honest the chippiness on some of the recent Irish threads was a bit weird and it felt like people were demanding to be offended!

It was weired.

*weird

I don't think you have the right to go through life not being offended by anything - what offends you does not offend other people and you don't have the right to speak for or impose your opinions on them.
We are all upset by different things, but a free country means having to listen to things we might not like and being able to say things that others might not like.
Given that this phrase is not exclusively used about Ireland and that it's meaning is not a direct insult in the way that other words are, you have a choice to either accept mnhq's stance on their site or find an alternative that suits you better.

In all my years of being Irish I have met many people who understood the origins of this phrase and not one Irish person who thought it was offensive.

Even if I’d met loads I would think very very carefully before changing the language becaus it causes a group offense. This way madness lies. I do not want ordinary language to be policed like this.

I had no idea. But then i often dont 'get' things. Will certainly think twice about using it again.

In all my years of being Irish I have met many people who understood the origins of this phrase and not one Irish person who thought it was offensive.

Just asked my BIL. He hasn't either.

I’m Irish, so is my DH. Neither of us find this expression insulting and we are well aware of the historical background. We don’t know anyone who would be insulted by its use.
DH actually said he is proud to be beyond the pale.
However saying Connor and Liam are naughty boy names is grossly offensive.

However saying Connor and Liam are naughty boy names is grossly offensive.

As is saying anything like that about any name. Certain names get called chav, posh, ugly 'unpronouncable' It isn't just Irish names that get picked on or those with them.

AIUI on the other thread, the request is not for ordinary MNers to not use the phrase at all, but for MNHQ not to use it in their statements about offensive post content (in which context the irony may seem particularly bitter. Speaking of irony, it does strike me as ironic that people are defending MNHQ using the phrase by saying they don't want the language police, on a site featuring very regular threads of sometimes pretty aggressive invective against a lot of non-standard RP/dialect words/phrases/pronunciations).

The casual acceptance of the term 'chav'/'chavvy' on this site makes me want to tear my hair out too, tbh. I think it's a shame that in the 21st century it's apparently OK to use language dripping with contempt for those the speaker perceives to be socially 'beneath' them.

Sorry, my post before last wasn't very clear - I meant 'words/phrases/pronunciations that are dialect or otherwise not standard RP terms/pronunciations etc'.

I heard about origins when I took a guided tour of Trinity College Dublin. It was portrayed as 'isn't that an interesting historical fact' rather than 'the origins are offensive so don't use the phrase any more'.

I had always associated it with the Calais ‘pale’. It was shamefully recent that I read about the Irish pale and plantations and really bothered to go a bit deeper in my limited understanding of something centrally important throughout my entire adult life !! Astounded I wasn’t taught a lot of this at school (southern England). Despite this I hadn’t fully thought about this phrase being offensive/racist/discriminatory. I do use it. It’s really useful. I don’t think I can use it now. Need to think of an alternative.

The origin of beyond the pale is from palus (L) and it means outside the boundary (marked by sticks called palus) of a settlement. It has since come to mean outside societies metaphorical boundaries. It doesn’t mean outside any specific settlement as the op suggests.

I’m with the others here - never met another Irish person who found it offensive.

This feels boy who cried wolf. You can’t get offended by everything and expect to be taken seriously.

That said, seems odd Mumsnet have chosen this as the hill they want to die on.

Surely use of the phrase is context dependant! This is getting silly now, people getting offended for the sake of it. We need to stop the ultra lefties taking over and telling us which words they find offensive.

It’s an interesting theory about the origin of the phrase but society has moved on, and so must language. For example, the word “gay” has changed meaning. and again it’s about context wether I’m using it in a nice was “that woman is gay” or in a nasty way - “what you did was so gay”.

Beyond the pale is fine!

Op i am from northern Ireland, and have family in republic of ireland...and I've never heard of anyone here where I live being offended by it...

Your post makes it sound like we ALL are offended, I've never come across one single person who has ever mentioned it being offensive

As for myself (I'm irish, with roots in northern Ireland and republic of ireland,) I'm not offended either,

Actually thinking about it I use it when I am gently mocking those who are inside the pale and with admiration for those who are beyond. It’s always said mocking those who might think something is ‘beyond the pale’. Not sure now what I think . . .

This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

What the fuck does this bit mean OP??

So you are singling out just English people for your sorry little rant?? Jog on love...

In all my years of being Irish I have met many people who understood the origins of this phrase and not one Irish person who thought it was offensive.

Well, your experience is not universal. I’m Irish born and raised, and I’ve known about the origins of “beyond the pale” since I was a child. Just asked my DH (also Irish) and was was aware as well.

It is highly inappropriate for it to be used in official guidelines to explain what constitutes unacceptable racist and bigoted language, because it carries baggage of racism and bigotry in its own right. To insist on its inclusion in talk guidelines is to be oblivious to tone. To dismiss its impact is unconscious bias in action.

And yes, many people deny unconscious bias exists (including on this thread). That’s what makes it unconscious: it happens automatically without deliberate intent. It’s still real and it’s still bias, however, and there’s an ocean of research to show how it still impacts negatively on marginalised and minority groups.

So you are singling out just English people for your sorry little rant?? Jog on love..

Er, think of the context and why that would be particularly offensive coming from an English person to an Irish person. What was the english pale in ireland? Think about it.

Er, think of the context and why that would be particularly offensive coming from an English person to an Irish person. What was theenglishpale inireland? Think about it.

Do you know where each and every poster cones from or MNHQ? How do you know it is only English people saying it?

*comes