To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

My late GPs (Russian Jews) lived beyond the pale in a shtetl in Lithuania. They are buried in our Jewish cemetery which like most (if not all?) old Jewish cemeteries was set up outside the city boundaries where they lived. I don’t find the phrase offensive because I believe that most people don’t know about either the Irish pales or the Russian ones and use it to mean beyond the boundaries of normal/acceptable, without any racial slur. I do think that if someone makes it clear they are offended by the term then others should not use it in their presence. It’s a difficult one I think because of the lack of knowledge of the origin.

YABU. The Irish ‘pale’ as an area of mainly English habitation was a feature of medieval Ireland that had been largely diluted by early c17th. I can’t see any evidence that the phrase has developed in relation to this particular pale (there were others of different types in France and Russia) or has ever had a history of being used to make a racist point. I think this comes under the banner of being ‘professionally offended’.

YANBU. I had no idea also.

You're being hugely unreasonable op. You don't get to dictate what people do and don't say. I find censorship beyond the pale.

Yabu to claim the majority of irish people find it offensive when that clesrly isnt fact.

I’ve never been offended by it, but I do think context is king and if someone says please don’t say that it’s just good manners to abstain from using the phrase in that conversation. It’s origins which are true enough to its current meaning would have been highly offensive in the time it was coined, but not now. But then I’m firmly ensconced in the pale.....

All I can think of is it being a lyric in the Joseph song, Potiphar.

Yanbu. I brought this up a few years ago but it was brushed off.

You are imagining things OP. It is not an offensive phrase any more than Liam is a “naughty boys name”. You have totally lost any pinch of credibility after that!

Oh and I am of Irish parentage and have never heard that this is offensive before this thread.

Well I'm Irish and don't find it offensive in the slightest. Why should you speak for me OP and tell me what to be offended by?

It's a phrase whose etymology is so distant and probably vague and also that is in such common parlance that its original meaning no longer matters.

It's hardly on a par with "paki"

My Irish mil says throwing a paddy about by DS terrible twos....didn’t know this was offensive.Actually I have heard the majority of her family say it

*Suttree

You're being hugely unreasonable op. You don't get to dictate what people do and don't say. I find censorship beyond the pale*

She isn’t dictating though she’s just asked can MNHQ not use it? You also sound like one of those people who make racist slurs and harp on about censorship and freedom of speech just by this post alone.

If Irish people and Jewish people find this offensive then it shouldn’t be used by MNHQ. I’ve Personally never used the phrase, I don’t think I’ve heard it much either tbh but I suppose it depends where you’re from etc.

There seems to be a massive issue with MNHQ and their lack of moderation when it comes to racism towards Irish people lately from what I’ve seen on here though.

Sorry for the bold fail

I was told that the pale was the boundary around a graveyard so if you were "beyond the pale" you weren't considered good enough to be buried with everyone else.

Almost every expression or word that describes someone unfavourably seems to have its roots in the past when we were not so politically correct.

If a word or phrase has evolved such that it no longer has any of its original connotations, then being offended by its use because it meant something different in a time before living memory is a bit silly and looking for an excuse to take offence.

It’s even more daft in this case as it’s not clear that this was ever used offensively to describe who literally lived ‘beyond the pale’, and the mere fact that the pale was a result of centuries old Medieval English imperialism is enough to mean any phrase containing it is off limits! What next, is someone going to be offended by Swashbuckle for glorifying c18th piracy?

The issue is though that MNHQ could use a non-offensive phrase but despite knowing that just a few people are offended by it they can't be bothered to change the guidelines. It also would help to be more transparent and avoid idioms for users with some disabilities or for whom English is a foreign language. The OP is not asking for MNHQ to ban the phrase on MN just to amend their own guidelines to be clearer and less offensive. Personally I am not offended by the phrase but equally it wouldn't bother me if it was changed to 'beyond the boundaries of everyday speech' or something like that. Both constraints are subjective and wouldn't change the way in which MN is moderated so why not go for the less offensive version?

This discussion could equally apply to the word hooligan (the name given to a rowdy family in an old song that was rude about the Irish). Or boycott, although its origins aren't so derogatory: Boycott was a land agent in Ireand who was shunned by the community for evicting tenants who couldn't pay their rent because of crop failure.

I knew that a pale was a fence and, although I knew about the Russian pale, just assumed that beyond the pale just meant something that was unacceptable in a given community.

I'm not sure where I stand on "beyond the pale" now. "Throwing a paddy" is awful though, I don't use it.

I agree with the OP about the strange mixture of ignorance, condescencion and mild hostility towards Ireland and the Irish that you come across in the UK. It's almost like black people in the US: so much glamour and cachet in other parts of the world; such low status close to home.
I strongly disagree with the idea that people should cringe with shame, and apologise and never use words or phrases again once they've been told: "that's offensive" by someone who considers themselves a member of an oppressed group.
Even if you successfully bully and shame people out of using phrases and words of dubious origin, it doesn't do anything to change general attitudes. You might do that by convincingly, politely and truthfully educating people about history, but you have centuries of colonisation and indoctrination to battle, so it's a long, slow process that you can't complete as an idividual. It's no good getting people's backs up by repeating nonsensical social-justice-warrior ideas about how people should behave on hearing "that's offensive".

There are many manifestations. Names like Conor and Liam are considered naughty boy names.

As are many other names. In this example I think you are looking for offence.

No, I’ ve noticed for years the odd attitude towards many Irish male names on the baby names forum — names that in Ireland are utterly standard uninflected names, the equivalent of Thomas or Edward, are viewed as — that charming Mn standard — ‘chavvy’.

And you could play Mn Irish bingo with the attitudes on this thread. And have a full house fairly fast.

What next, is someone going to be offended by Swashbuckle for glorifying c18th piracy?

Can't believe you used the S word. You didn't even put a trigger warning. Fascist.

And you could play Mn Irish bingo with the attitudes on this thread

Well a large majority are by posters who have either said they are Irish or have Irish heritage. So not sure what you are getting at tbh.

Do you mean they don't completely agree with you?

And you could play Mn Irish bingo with the attitudes on this thread. And have a full house fairly fast.

Have I missed something? Apart from being surprised that anti Irish feeling is still a thing (understandable if a bit naive) what has been said about Irish people?

Why is the phrase beyond the pale actually offensive?

While it may have its roots in a nasty part of history- it isn’t actually an insult is it? It’s to describe something which is dreadful.

So, why is it offensive?

It's offensive in this context as it says that something beyond the pale is bad. Historically, what was beyond the pale was Irish people so if you were beyond the pale you were a non entity and had no rights.

Normally I would take no offence to this saying as i have only heard it used in a light hearted context by other Irish people often in the context of National politics where rural citizens are giving out that unless something affects Dublin (the Capital) then it is not newsworthy or does not get funding etc.. and I have heard people say if you live outside the pale then you don't matter i.e the historic boundaries of the pale were around Dublin and that's what it was known as "The Pale".