to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

*she has fairly recently become physically broken, immobile, doubly incontinent, demented, hospitalised, and in a situation you wouldnt put a dog.

My husband lost capacity at 50 years old after a brain injury.*

It seems some people on this thread think they defy medicine, science plus the laws of nature and chance and that this can't happen to them because they feel OK today. You can't argue with stupid...

Would you be able to show this thread to your mother, OP, or is that too much tough love?

We are going through this hell right now. We have one incapacitated seriously ill parent awaiting chemo for a brain tumours - we won't know his outcome for sometime. There is no POA in place for him and solicitor has said too late, so his wife and us cannot access any of his savings to pay the household bills.
The distressed mother also has no POA and has a dependant adult child with special needs. We are now urging her to rapidly set up a POA but she's spinning the "I'm not quite ready yet line". Unfortunately, the risk she is taking is not on her, it's all on us.
If the worst were to happen, we possibly will have to take out expensive bridging loans to cover household costs. It's causing us sleepless nights on top of the distress of the sick parents outcome. We are not retired, we work and have children at school. I'm afraid @user1476013826, it's your attitude that I find ugly.

Sounds like your mum thinks your Dbs can do no wrong and is expecting the sun to shine out their arse when she dies. While you have a much clearer picture of them. It sounds a lot like favouritism which is very hurtful. Its not about money or even jewellery, its being treated like second best and an afterthought.

Id write the jewellery off, step back and assess the situation and the relationship of you and your mum vs her and your brother/s.

user1476013826 i take it in your will you have provisions in place for every eventuality? So you don't end up shafting your kids with stress and debt if you die sooner or later then you expected or deteriorate to needing respite care or carers?

It is selfish as Tinkobell, has described not even to have the conversation. My dc are toddlers but my family knows my will as will dc when they are old enough too. It gives them piece of mind.

There's two elements here:

1. The mother's hoarding and house full of stuff
2. Wills, POA etc.

The first you are unreasonable to be nagging over. Her house, her possessions, up to her how she does things whilst she is here.

The second you are reasonable to want to raise.
These things can only be drawn up when someone is of sound mind. I've seen too many friends end up in horrible positions when relatives have declined quickly or when there's dementia involved and there's no POA. I've seen friend having to maintain houses they can't sell but their relative has no idea what day or even year it is and will never go back yo the house. I've seen people having yo go through court of protection and associated loopholes.

Things like POA and wills are there to spare your loved ones the suffering and anger an confrontation etc when you aren't there or are unable to make decisions. Refusing to consider them in my opinion is irresponsible, but you can't force anyone.

Hang on - I'm confused. So you need LPA even if your spouse is around and able to make decisions on your behalf? And they need LPA to access your finances even of you're married?

Please, mind your own business. I would be livid if my daughter did this. Might be tempted to have a new will leaving everything to charity, or spend it all now

LPA/POA, whatever you choose to call it, means that someone you trust/love can step in if you become incapacitated for whatever reason. That can happen at any age.

There is something beautiful, rather than ugly, about choosing to make the decision before you need it, in order to make life smoother for those who are left to pick up the pieces.

I'm 57, DH is 56. He has grade 3 bowel cancer. What is to be gained from him not allowing me POA? DM is 88 and I've explained her situation above. What on earth could be not 'ugly' about leaving everyone left in the lurch now that she has dementia?

I really dont understand those who say its grabby, or intrusive. Do what you have to do to make sure you dont leave a massive mess in your wake.

My dp just told mil that if she dies he will just clear the house out and send everything to the tip (she has nothing of any monetry value and is a dreadful horder) she started sorting her stuff out pretty quickly after that

Just to clarify from my personal experience. If your spouse loses capacity and you don’t have a power of attorney you cannot access any money or sort anything financial affairs until you go
to the court of protection to get a deputyship order. This cost me £2000 you even have to pay a doctor (£200 !) to get them to sign the forms. The forms were complex and difficult,it also took 8 months. Fortunately I was able to access our joint accounts but some banks freeze them also. Once the the deputyship order was in place I had to separate all our finances, pay a security bond in case I steal all the money and I have to keep all receipts etc and documents every penny of my husbands money I spend for my annual report. I have to break down what I have spent it on to the extent of toiletries, clothes travel, gifts etc. I am allowed to take money for household bills etc but have to explain why I have done everything on the online form. I have to ring and ask permission if I need money for larger expenses like a new boiler, car , anything above £500 really. It has been very stressful and unpleasant. I have had to apply separately for my daughter to be the deputy to sell the house should that need to happen. You cannot be a deputy for the house if you own the other half. My husband had actually filled in his LPA but not sent it off yet, it costs about £50 Is straightforward and only comes into being when you lose capacity. You also do not have to do annual accounts with a LPA or ask permission to spend monies. I

My dp just told mil that if she dies he will just clear the house out and send everything to the tip (she has nothing of any monetry value and is a dreadful horder) she started sorting her stuff out pretty quickly after that wink

She should have told him she has a couple of valuable antiques he doesn't know about hidden among her stuff.

Good thing I didn't do that. I found five separate envelopes with £200 in each of them.

Thanks for that info, halfacup I'm so sorry for what you have been through. I'd always assumed being married would automatically give you those rights but clearly that's not the case.

Thanks again for all the comments.

To those who are still commenting negatively about me please (confused and user147) RTWT. I've already said several times that I'm highly unlikely to be gaining financially from my DMs death and the only thing I'd like is her relatively worthless jewellery. I neither need nor want her money, I wouldn't be surprised if she does give it all to charity and if she blew it all on travelling the world, I'd be delighted for her. So repeatedly telling me that if I was your daughter you'd rewrite your will to disinherit me really makes no difference. If DM fell and hit her head tomorrow and ended up incapacitated I have a DH, DC and a job and I live 120 miles away. We'd have no access to any of her personal affairs and have to keep her large house and garden going from our own pockets (see pp who have had to take loans to cover this) as we couldn't access her bank account and couldn't sell the house for her ongoing care........or do the objecting posters think this is ok? I will be completely and utterly devastating when my DM (and best friend) becomes incapacitated or dies, surely anything that can be sorted in advance makes the process less traumatic should be implemented.

Hang on - I'm confused. So you need LPA even if your spouse is around and able to make decisions on your behalf? And they need LPA to access your finances even of you're married? read the post by
halfacup (today 1955) and google 'what happens if my husband dies without a will'. If everything is in joint names you may be OK, but as half a cup has explained without a LPA you may be screwed have really hard time.

You can do a PoA online here www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney. you don't even need a solicitor. It costs £82 and takes less than 10 minutes to fill in....a bit longer to get registered.

And we have had a breakthrough. DMs sister has succeeded where I have failed and DM has promised to look at the PoA with me next week with a view to completing it. Apparently the words "very important" mean something entirely different when uttered by an older Dsis!

If you hold accounts or property jointly it’s ok as both joint account holders can access the account. If you have accounts \ property yourself a spouse cannot access without a lasting power of attorney or you have to apply to court to be appointed a deputy as half describes

Can you have two LPAs? Set one up for your spouse but also for your adult children if your spouse loses capacity in the future?

Oneforsorrow my DM was potentially in this position when DF suddenly lost his mental capacity. They didn't have a joint account but most of the pension and bills went through DF's bank account. DH and I were looking at the prospect of having to pay the rent for DM's property and DF's nursing home out of our bank account until we could sort out the deputy order. My DF sadly died in hospital before he went to the nursing home.

My DM had been reluctant for us to sort out POAs before then as she thought it would mean we were taking control away from them. Once my DF died we sorted out her POA.

Honey you can have a number of attorneys on POA, so for DM you can have DF and adult children. You can also put some additional people on, who can become attorneys if any of the principal ones die/lose mental capacity. They all have to sign the paperwork before it is registered.

You can choose whether the attorneys act jointly or jointly and severally ie they all have to agree on a decision or act separately.

MsTSwift banks can potentially freeze joint accounts.

Honeyroar you can have as many LPAs as you like, and also reserve LPAs. The gov website explains it well www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney.

you choose your LPAs and then you choose whether;

1. they can act independently i.e. don't have to consult with each other and agree (this obviously has the greatest element of risk)
2. they all have to be consulted and agree - this means that if one is unavailable (dead or incapacitated and you haven't updated your LPA or simply trekking in Peru and uncontatctable) then its effectively useless.
3. you can specify different circumstances where either they all have to agree or where one can make a decision independently. so, for example if you choose this option you might specify that they all had to agree if they were selling your house, but that if one was in charge of maintenance of the house then he didn't have to consult with the others to withdraw money from the account of say up to £200, he could act independently.

The reserve LPA is used if the nominated LPAs aren't available. So I have for my property and finance LPA my DH and DM, but I also have a reserve LPA if for any reason DM or DH were unavailable. Reserve LPA can access all my affairs if needs be.

Hope that helps.

Thanks v much.

10yellow I am glad you have had a breakthrough and hope you manage to sort out the POA

Ineedaholidaynow - I had no idea they could freeze joint accounts in those circumstances!

OP - glad your DM is now considering POA. Sometimes it needs someone of their own generation to tell them it's a good idea.

Onefor I don't think it is automatic as it would be for an individual's bank account, but I remember reading, when we were researching the impact of not having a POA, that sometimes joint bank accounts are frozen. So I would hate for people to rely on the fact that they have a joint account or to set up a joint account with a parent, instead of getting a POA.

Another point with joint accounts, a relative, as adult child, added their name to bank account with their parent, to enable him to help with finances for elderly parent. This parent was eligible for means tested benefits. When looking at the bank account, the balance was deemed to be shared, so the level of benefits received were technically baed on the incorrect figures, as the adult child did not use the money in the bank account for themselves.

Another PP has said that if you joint own assets you will be ok without POA, this isn't necessarily the case either.

DH and I jointly own our house, if we were to have a huge argument and DH decides to sell the house in a fit of pique, he can't, as quite rightly I am protected by the law and would have to sign my permission to sell the house.

So, if instead, DH was to suddenly lose mental capacity, and I wanted to sell the house to downsize or move closer to family for support etc, I would not automatically be able to, as would need DH's permission. In this case I would need to apply to the court to get permission to sell, so incurring time and costs.

Likewise, if DH has a car registered in his name, I would not be able to sell it without his permission, and if he has lost mental capacity he cannot give this permission.

These are all good reasons to have a POA in place

I don’t really understand why people choose not to put good legal plans in place. Do they think it’s tempting fate? I personally want my children to benefit from my estate, and to have the least amount of hassle and headache when I’ve lost capacity or died. Anyone that’s ever had to deal with the resulting chaos of not having legal arrangements in place tends to “get it”.

Why also the angst around LPA and thinking your beneficiaries are money grabbing? It’s not activated until you’ve lost capacity and there are rules in place. It’s not like anyone can activate it randomly cos they fancy a few grand. Don’t you want someone’s to organise paying your rent and bills if you’re suddenly unable to?

Baffled.