to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

As other PPs have said, you probably need to back off a bit but a little bit of education, letting her know what the consequences could be without POA and ensuring she is happy with that (unlikely!) could be the way to go.

As for those saying "too young" they are talking crap. Any adult with dependents/offspring without an up-to-date will is plain selfish and irresponsible. And any over 60 year old without POAs in place is just burying their head in the sand and is also selfish and irresponsible.

My apparently fit, healthy DF died at 63, having relished six short months of a longed-for early retirement. He'd put off making a will, and DM was too distraught to deal with things easily, so I ended up dealing with a lot of the legalities. It did prompt her, however, to sort out her own will, and when she later died I found three copies (typical civil servant!) She was somewhat off her trolley by the time she died in her turn, but I know which estate was easier to deal with.....and having come through some Pythonesque moments, I ensured that I not only had a will, but Enduring Power of Attorney (just before the law changed), which just left Dad's hoarding to deal with; DM found it too upsetting while she survived him, so I chipped away at it for six months after her passing.
I was in my early thirties when I got all this sorted, and it did feel a bit odd to be contemplating my death, but such a weight off my shoulders as I left the solicitor's office. Making your will does not make you die sooner!
I have some of DF's hoarding tendencies, (he opened a bank account when promoted to officer during his war service, and had kept all the returned cheques; I am of a vintage where baby baths were papier mache, not plastic, just two random examples) but I was spurred into action on my own account by revues of the "Death Clearing" book, and the question, "What would you be embarrassed about people finding when they go through your stuff?" Pause for thought.......
As for the jewellery; one of my aunties, approaching her nineties full of vim; she decided of her own accord that she no longer went to many jewellery-wearing occasions, so had a sharing session with the rising generation so that she could see it being worn and enjoyed.
But your DM knows her own mind; don't raise your concerns again, which might, perversely, make her return to the topic, and refuse to engage in the topic; "Oh, DB will deal with all that, and he can always organise a house clearance!"

ToftyAC, DM hates cats, so she'll never leave it to any cats home, but I wouldn't be in the least surprised if she left it all to cancer research or some alzheimers charity, nor would I be resentful. Equally if she wants to blow it all on travelling the world, funded by selling her home and using our house as a base, I'd be delighted. And in fact she did make a life changing purchase in the last 18 months. when she mentioned she was thinking of it I said "go for it". Its her money to do with what she likes. I neither need or want her money. What I do not need however is to spend hours/days/weeks of my life sorting through her house trying to find passwords and evidence of bank accounts, insurance and tax affairs. With a DH, DC and my own fairly demanding job, and with regard anything else my DM will admit that I'm 'run into the ground', but she just doesn't see her own mobility or mortality (y'know it comes to US ALL) as something that may break an already pretty stretched schedule.

*moRbiDity or mortality

sorting out results of broadly similar DH passed after short illness and have house and garage full of tools etc to clear try to do some each few weeks that bin goes. It's hard as you don't know what is rubbish and what is tat. Paperwork is even worse but luckily sorted will and bank accounts out. Good luck with helping her get on with it

my mil was diagnosed then incapciated within weeks sometimes it not long at all and she never had poa sorted things were more complicated

she was 62

maybe she has early Dementia ?
any other signs ?

Omg this is horrrendous. You’ve allowed your relationship with your mother to become strained because you don’t want to clear the cupboards out when she dies?! She is only 70! You could die before she does! Let me tell you from experience that nothing will help that gut wrenching mum shaped void in your life when she is gone. I lost my mum 3 years ago and every day is awful. Get some perspective OP. You ruin your relationship over cleaning then you are an utter fool.

nannyk8 def doesn't have early dementia - she has just been tested.I I wasn't ever concerned that she did

user147, perhaps you should read the full thread. I think you've missed the point.

Setting up POA while in good health and without any particular pressure is the always going to be the best way. Time to think about who to appoint, time to talk with them, time to decide how they should operate.

My DM has set up POA for finance and health/welfare. My DB and I are the attorneys. For finance we have to act together, for health/welfare either of us can act.

For me the sad thing with my mother's last years was seeing her getting less and less mobile, and with her hoarding habit, making her her day to day life very difficult and dangerous. She had a couple of very bad falls whilst negotiating the heaps of clutter. Luckily she was only badly bruised and didn't break a hip.

I was also sad that she had some nice things which she could have used and enjoyed, while she made do with tat e.g. towels worn to ribbons, when she had a cupboard full of new good ones. Some local charities did well out of them. Other things put away 'for best' got spoiled with water damage or moth damage and had to be thrown out. Quite a few of these had been presents, which could have given her happy memories thinking of friends, some already passed away, when she used them.

The will issue is up to her.

However, a resting PoA is a very sensible thing to do no matter your age or current state of health.

It makes things much easier for everyone, Dr's included. If, for instance, you develop dementia or become mentally incapacitated for whatever reason and there is no PoA in place at the point where you lose capacity to consent to one being granted then a guardianship order has to be applied for. This is a very lengthy and often expensive process, with the patient being stuck in Limbo- some decisions cannot be made by Dr's (despite what people think). I have direct professional experience of these situations and it can be hugely distressing for the patient and their families.

I think this is the best way forward
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OP I think you should tell your mum how hurt you are about how she’s behaving towards you. She’s saying your not going to get anything anyway so you’ve got nothing to lose! Just calmly and gently tell her you’re very worried about what may happen if she got ill.
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I think you have probably said everything else that you can already. You are not being selfish in wanting her to sort her affairs- she is being selfish in leaving you the headache of having to sort out all her affairs at a time when you would be grieving. You could also point out that all her wishes regarding who gets the jewellery and attends her funeral (and even who organises it) will be disregarded as they are not in an official document. After that, I wouldn’t bother to mention it again as there is nothing more you can do.

I was advised that you should make a will when your personal circumstances change, such as upon marriage, divorce and the birth of your children. Have had a will and PoA in place since then. Peace of mind for me although I have no intention of them being needed for many years! I think people bury their heads in the sand about it as they are scared of the inevitable. Death is the only thing you can be sure of in life.

I have had a will since I was 17. I had too... but I still update it and send new sealed copies to my dad so that he has it if needed. Mum hates to even think about it, so won't even touch the copies haha, but both of them have also had their wills sorted out since their early 20's. They would hate to leave us or their parents in the lurch. My partners family, on the other hand, won't even talk about the subject even though his mum has just spent 5 years trying to sort out her dad's estate after he and her brother passed close to each other. I just don't get why people don't just sort it out.

I've just encouraged my parents to sort out poa. My point was that if it comes to the point where it's needed, I'll be quite stressed enough without having to mortgage my house to pay for their care when they can easily afford it but I can't access their money for them. They thought about that for a bit and agreed. I also reminded then how hard it was for them as their parents got older, and hippie having the paperwork in order helped.

The thing that finally did it was when my dad really got that signing it doesn't action it, it gets activated at need. I've said, entirely sincerely, that I hope it's wasted money and that the doc sits in a drawer gathering dust and is never used.

Apologies as to be honest I haven't read the whole thread but have you pointed out the alternative. We missed the boat with doing a power I'd attorney for my Mum who rapidly went into an incapacity state with dementia. Local Authority were a nightmare and I had to become a court appointed deputy - £4,500 it cost Mum. It's really not uncommon for people to have to do it. Costs of a power of attorney are next to nothing in comparison.

is there anything you want to find in the house at them minute(pretend to want)? some photos or something.and when looking for or through them could you ask just nicely."mum is this the type of stuff or is there any other stuf you want to us to keep hold of.i don't ever want to get rid of stuff that has gone through the lines or means so much to us all?" or do you have any children.that could ask gran if the could have that one day.it might get her thinking.

What a disgusting post. Nothing to do with you what she does or doesn't do with her will and it's shocking to me that you are getting annoyed about someone elses business. I'd write you totally out because your constant going on about it to an elderly woman is wrong. I'd be very concerned if i was her that one of my children seems fixated on her will. Stop bringing it up and certainly stop bullying her to change/make another will. None of your business at all. Absolute bullying and doesn't paint you in the best light.

@svalentine60 guessing you haven't read the full thread? Op has said again it's not about her own inheritance, it's about not being able to deal with everything if her DM is incapacitated or dies.
Also read all the experiences from people who've struggled without poas, or with coping with hoarding after a death. Anyone of any age with children and no wills is bloody selfish, in my opinion, and anyone leaving a home crammed with junk, when they have the ability to sort it, has to understand that grief stricken relatives with their own families may need to get junk clearers to come and ditch the whole lot.
It sounds harsh, but after helping with three elderly relatives in quick succession,bone of whom was scammed of all her savings, leaving the rest of us to fund her care, has left me a bit hardened on this one.

"In addition a deputy has to provide a security bond upfront which is a type of insurance policy that protects the person who has lost capacity in the event of financial mismanagement."

Does the deputy have to pay the cost of the security bond? If so, what happens if nobody is prepared to act - do social services have to step in and apply to act?

I do see the point that you have to put a lot of trust in your attorney - not everyone has someone who they would trust in that position. I suppose if you appoint more than one poa so that they all have to agree (you have to ensure that they have to agree, rather than each be able to take decisions individually), that may reduce the risk of abuse. Especially perhaps if the attorneys are unrelated/don't know each other. More hassle for the attorneys, but perhaps less open to misdeeds.

Thanks for taking the time to post svalentine but if you read the whole thread you’d see that plenty/ most of pp think it’s a very sensible and reasonable post. I’m not looking for any financial gain from her eventual death. And I’ve totally taken on board that I just need to shut up about the hoarding. I hope you have ordered your affairs.

And svalentine I certainly wouldn’t classify 70 as elderly.

Exactly. The LPA is necessary - for everyone. (Although I haven't done one or a will )

But - the hoarding... if the dm is 70 and not demented, then you have to back off and respect that person's "stuff". If the dm had dementia or was like one of those hoarders on a tv programme, then that's different.

I tried to clear up the pil's house when df was still there. It was impossible . He needed everything, even soiled old pillows/duvets. Sadly after he went into a home a skip was the destination of everything, first to go being their 60 boxes of photos of their cruises. Sil and I cleared the house, because we were unsentimental about things. We got nowhere when dh and bil were chipping in with, "Oh, but on this (chipped, cracked) plate we had chocolate biscuits on a Saturday" etc etc.

I too have a bit of "sentimental crap" in the house and thousands of books. In fact sil once observed, "Why do you keep those messy old books?" Rubbish is often in the eye of the beholder.

I had something similar with my dm.
I was blunt after trying nice first.
I literally said " I am not sorting out any mess that you can sort out now. I will instruct a solicitor at full cost to deal with everything. I will also employ a house clearing firm. I will help you sort it out now. I will not after you die."
It worked!

Frankly once your kids are 18 there is no reason not to have your LPAs in place providing you trust your spouse and children. Makes life much more difficult for the poor sods sorting out your affairs without one if you suddenly lost capacity which can happen at any age