to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

A friend’s DP has just died aged 70. This very clever man who was CEO of a FTSI 100 company had not updated his will for 10 years ( before he knew friend) . Although he wanted her looked after and trusted his kids to sort things out, she has got nothing. Lesson to us all to regularly update our will.

"Frankly once your kids are 18 there is no reason not to have your LPAs in place providing you trust your spouse and children."

And if you don't (trust spouse and dc), can you appoint solicitors to act? - though obviously they would charge, that might be a solution for those who don't trust spouse/dc fully or at all - or who alternatively are worried that appointing spouse and dc may lead to arguments between them?

I know this may sound terrible, but it isn't that far fetched not to have complete confidence in how (much loved) spouses/dc would behave. I have learned from mn how surviving dspouses sometimes behave after one of them dies. And with dc, I think the influence of, say, a partner can change dynamics - (think Sense and Sensibility!).

but I can't really see any use for mouse nibbled 50 year old electricity bills. I would have said the same before Windrush. Now I'm wondering whether some future government might end up wanting 4 pieces of documentation from every single year from a greater group of us to prove that we haven't upped sticks and lived abroad for a period.

What do you do if you don't have anyone to appoint as POA? I am divorced without close family other than my elderly mum and children who are under 18. And tbh even once they turn 18 I wouldn't want to burden a teenager with the responsibility.

In a similar vein I have noone to appoint as guardian for my children if I die. They have a father who has PR, but if something were to happen to him there's no one. I suppose the one blessing of divorce is that he and I are unlikely to die together in a car crash.

And if you don't (trust spouse and dc), can you appoint solicitors to act? -

As I mentioned upthread this is what my FiL did. Its not that he didnt trust his sons exactly but his dw had died young and the sons were both quite young when he made his poa. The solicitor in question was actually someone he knew well through church so at the time I think he thought of it as a sensible adult person to be in charge of his affairs, rather than his teenage boys! Many years later when the poa came into effect it has worked in our favour since my BiL has turned out to be a bit unreliable and this has prevented any arguments. FiL solicitor friend is actually retired now and has taken it as a special duty, along with another solicitor from the practice. As I mentioned before they have been very nice and worked with my Dh taking all his suggestions into account, for example dh chose the nursing home. Of course they will have to be paid and this will come out of FiL estate but it has been a good solution for our family. At the same time if you can rely your spouse and children then you would save a lot money by appointing them directly.

Does the deputy have to pay the cost of the security bond?

As a deputy you can either pay the security bond yourself and claim it back from the estate or it’s paid directly out of the person’s estate. The bond is relative to the value of the total estate and how much control the deputy has.

if you appoint more than one poa so that they all have to agree (you have to ensure that they have to agree, rather than each be able to take decisions individually), that may reduce the risk of abuse.

You can appoint more than one PoA and they can be instructed to act ‘jointly’ as in making decisions together and all PoAs having to sign documents, or ‘jointly and severally’ where they can act on their own as well. You an determine what aspects you want to be done jointly and others to be done jointly and severally.

I think that should cut down the risk of abuse, however the joint option may cause problems making decisions if people don’t agree. Because if they don’t all agree the decision can’t be made.

Actually I have read the whole thread!
We have POA for my FIL and I have had MIL house to sort out when she went, plus my GM’s house. It’s horrendous! However all you can do is gently suggest these things are in order before people get too old / unable to sort themselves. You cannot get huffy and annoyed that they won’t or don’t want to clear out their house so it’s bloody easy for you to sell etc when they are dead! F’ing ridiculous. Can’t believe so many of you think this is an ok way to behave!
When loved ones die, it’s upsetting, sad and difficult to sort out their things, it’s perhaps a helpful part of the process of grieving that there is so much practical stuff to sort out, giving us focus and closure perhaps.
Absolutely horrible to get annoyed as someone living because they won’t empty their cupboards for you pre death or even illness!

I would just warn people to be careful about appointing their solicitor as executor or attorney. Check first what they will charge for this service. The costs can be eye-wateringly high.

Yes I know I said it's working out for us but the solicitors do charge £300 an hour! This will all be paid for out of Fil estate but obviously it's going to take a big chunk of whatever doesn't go in nursing home fees.

A lot of people on here are going to have a shock if they think 70 is too young for problems.

My mother died suddenly at 67 from a brain aneurism - no warning, nothing. Dad was already in early stages of dementia and died at 78.

DH and I have wills drawn up and POAs filled in - just need to send them off - we are early 60s.

Also if no wills are in place it can take ages to sort out and it may be difficult to access money in bank accounts which might be needed by the remaining family members.

Did do a loud snort at the suggestion upthread of calling the Fire Brigade... Can you imagine the call handler asking your emergency and it's "My mother won't clear out her cupboards..."

but I can't really see any use for mouse nibbled 50 year old electricity bills. I would have said the same before Windrush

I take your point, but this was not DM's stuff but GF's electricity bills from a house sold 40 years before. There are some things I would keep e.g. birth and marriage certificates and for someone who had moved country, yes, any sort of Identity document. Personally I have kept P60s even though I am retired - I can see that they might just come in useful.

But it's the dirty duvets, the chipped plates, the hideous ornament that Great Aunt Maud gave to a second cousin which somehow ended up in the house, which needs to go.

The calling the Fire Brigade is not 999 for not clearing cupboards - it's part of their fire prevention advice, and is quite a useful idea if you are dealing with a hoarder. The hoarder might not listen to a relative, but being told by someone in authority that the house is a potential death trap and that they might not be able to get in to rescue you in time, might concentrate their minds.

Irma, you don’t ring 999 😂 I know what you mean though. I don’t think I’d thank you for sending a firefighter round to my house who’d then tell me to clean up my ‘clutter’ though. I think I’d cut off contact with anyone who’d arrange such a thing. Totally OTT and shaming.
The service offered by the fire brigade is great. We used it when I was a student for help and advice, and my mum has used it too - but she arranged her visit, not me, and I certainly wouldn’t go behind her back and arrange it!

SamFoxBigTits OP has already said that she has taken on board the comments about not mentioning the hoarding and is taking a backseat on that.

I am nearly 70, my daughters would not dream of interfering in my life, which is what you are doing to your mother. What I do and what I have is my business, and if I understand that the inheritance would be perceived as a problem to someone I would save them the hassle and take them off my will. Please let your mother have the life she has the right to have and deserves. You try to be a more understanding and tolerant daughter and don't be so materialistic. It's ugly.

I don’t think advising someone to consider appointing POW and/or POA is ‘ugly’. I think it shows OP cares.

It's only ugly if you're stupid.

@user147601382
You are entitled to expect your full independence in life assuming that you also have arrangements in place to support this level of independence should you become incapacitated in anyway or god forbid, pass away. Presumably you already have in independent POA in place, people who can come and assist clearing a house? If you don't then unfortunately you are taking a gamble that your daughters will just somehow manage, that they will be available and that they won't have any coincidence of unfortunate life issues themselves. I'm 47. I have a POA in place, I have a will and I periodically clear out unwanted gear and paperwork. I intend to enjoy a long and happy life but don't expect my children to drop everything to sort out matters that I could have easily seen to while I was fit and healthy. I would hate to suffer ill health and be at the mercy of what social seervices alone decided - THATS what POA is for!

It’s not materialistic to want your older relatives to have sorted out POA. Quite the opposite, if you think it is likely that you will be named POA - you're offering to give up a lot of time and effort to manage their affairs when they are incapable.

“Materialistic” would be OP refusing to get involved when her DM is old and frail, and leaving it up to SS to sort out because there’s nothing in it for her. She is trying to avoid that situation.

@user1476013826 what is "ugly" is having no concern for your children. What is ugly is expecting your children to sort through your house after your death with no concern for them. What is ugly is expecting your children to look after you when you have put no thought in to looking after them.

What s 'ugly' is expecting your children to sort through the detritus of your life with no concern for what they are going through after your death.

There is nothing ugly about getting POA in place, I am waiting for it to arrive for my DM in the next 2 weeks. In the meantime, she has fairly recently become physically broken, immobile, doubly incontinent, demented, hospitalised, and in a situation you wouldnt put a dog.

At the same time, my DH has a cancer diagnosis, awaiting further tests before he starts chemo/radio. I am currently sorting my DM's house so it can go on the market to pay for her care - which wont happen til we get POA because the private nursing home my DB has chosen wants a £10k deposit before they even entertain the idea of her.

Pretty damn high on the top of our list is arranging POA and revisiting our wills in case something goes wrong. Do not want our 22 and 19 year olds having to try and sort this kind of mess out...

Mum died in the summer after a relatively short illness. Her house is big and full of 50+ years of stuff. Bank statements from 1963, correspondence from grandparents, valuableish stuff, sentimental stuff, rubbish that is so old it's interesting again. It is going to take us months to sort it and it's very harrowing and lovely in turns.

I never gave her a hard time about it. It's her house and her life. We knew it would be tough. I know it's an overwhelming job and hard to do on your own.

She did sort her will out and POA which I'll always be thankful for. Maybe concentrate on that aspect rather than fighting about it all. With the house you can always get someone to clear it and skip a lot of stuff.

My husband lost capacity at 50 years old after a brain injury. I had to go to the court of protection. It is complicated and expensive . I have to justify and record all spending ,for my annual statement, it is a nightmare and he would be horrified that I cannot use any of his money without the court of protection permission if he understood. I would advise everyone to get their LPA sorted ASAP

Sorry to hear that half. Having LPAs in place is so important. I often see clients in similar situations to you.

Everyone should make a LPA even if it’s just to spare your loved ones the stress and pain of the court of protection should anything happen to you.