to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

Well done thegreylady

Your children will be very grateful should they ever need it.

Why doesn't the advice you are giving others (about a process that is arduous and distressing in a way you don't seem to comprehend, and haven't experienced yourself) apply to you?

I haven’t given anyone advice, I’m simply warning that PoA is not without its risks and to be aware of them that’s all. Posters here seem to be very naive to them. A judge experienced in the matter has warned the same thing, but if people are not interested it’s not my problem.

I know how laborious and arduous the CoP process is, that’s partly why I decided against it. My aunt is in no danger of being financially abused by me so it’s not worth the hassle. She has additional safeguards that other people don’t have, and I organised my own method of transparency within the family so that I can account for everything I do - that I essentially coped from the deputy system.

Family/friend fights over money are not uncommon, a bit of money and power can send apparently nice people bananas. If I were in a situation that I were not completely confident of the integrity of the individuals involved I’d be much more in favour of CoP for a vulnerable person. The deputy would be accountable to a court for everything they do and the vulnerable person would be insured against financial mismanagement.

6 out of 10 adults in the UK do not have a Will. A quarter of a million people are living with dementia. And yet still Wills and POA are seen as a taboo topic. It is an absolute nightmare if someone dies or loses capacity without having their affairs in order. If your DM wont do it you cant force her but if you are in Scotland and you lose capacity without a poa you are looking 9-12 months of stress for your family and around £3-5,000 (yes thousands) plus VAT plus outlays for someone to be appointed by the court to manage your affairs. Why would you do it to your family plus give away your hard earned wealth to the court system. Its ridiculous! And an out of date will is just asking for trouble even in the most friendly of families

Wtf is wrong with you!
How dare you tell a grown adult to clean out their own cupboards and sort out financial affairs. It’s non of your business tbh.
They may have left the lot to the cats home and it won’t be any of your concern

SamFoxBigTits I take it you havent read the thread?

Like Tinkobell my pil believed they were immortal and immune to ageing and ill health. When their affairs had to be accessed, they had left a will, but the solicitor had made a note that "Mr and Mrs X refused all advice" . Their will, consequently, was not really fit for purpose. Also all their money was in mil's name and she had lost capacity. After much arguing, her dcs agreed to, erm, pay a doctor to declare her competent so a LPA could be swiftly executed.

Coming back to the OP, I don't think the "hoarding" issue can really be addressed; the OP has already raised it a number of times. You have to remember that this is someone's stuff - it may look like a load of junk to someone else - even their child - but each piece is precious to them (even grim Royal Doulton figurines). Someone may well cast an eye around your house and declare everything to be crap.

My mum died when she was 34, leaving a 12yo (me) 10yo (dbro) and an 8mo (dsis) it's been almost 16 years and it still hurts. Please just spend the time with her, make some memories. I have almost none.

It’s up to her I suppose OP but I am thankful my 70yr old DM has sorted out her affairs. She’s sorted PoA because she doesn’t want non relatives making decisions about her health and finances if she becomes mentally incapable and, bless her, she has cleared her house of what she calls “rubbish” so we don’t have to. She’s kept all the photos she wants and given the rest to us kids and grandkids.

This thread made me think about our wills which were made several years ago. We have a copy but the originals (the only ones that count) is with a solicitor that we are not planning to use again.

We now find that this firm has merged with another firm and the solicitor that wrote the wills for us has left the new firm.

We will attempt to get the old ones back but probably need to make new ones anyway as things have changed.

The moral of this story is, hang on to your original signed copy of your will and tell your children/relatives exactly where to find it.

I'm glad you have seen the light greylady. I think the misconception about POAs may have arisen as they have changed since about 2007. The old style one only kicked in when you lost mental capacity, was then registered and your attorney took over.

The new style one re finance can be registered as soon as the donor signs it, but you can then choose when it comes into effect and how much control someone can have.

We have the old style ones, as we set them up when we first did our wills (once we had DC). We are now in the process of updating wills and need to update POAs. Again it might be handy if people are checking their wills to check if they have signed POAs in existence and whether they are the old or new styles.

If you have a relatively straight forward family you don't need solicitors to help you set up POAs (will just add to the cost). You can just print them off the website and follow the instructions on how to complete them, the order the pages are signed is very important. If you are worried about a particular member of the family having rights under the POA or the financial affairs are quite tricky, it might be an idea to add a solicitor/accountant as one of the attorneys. DH and some of his colleagues have been asked in their capacity as accountants.

Wow, this thread has certainly touched a few nerves, OP!

About 3 pages back, a pp wrote:
After having just gone through being an executor for a relative, anyone who sticks their head in the sand is being massively selfish. There is such a lot of work to do even if someone is organised with fianances, has power of attorney and a will. I’m overwhelmed with the admin, house clearance etc. And. We had a lot sorted in advance. I will not be leaving my children a shitstorm to sort out.

^^ This. We have also said we won't leave the same sort of mess for our own DCs.

Another pp said POA is for the living, not the dead. Absolutely true.

DFIL's house insurance company was happy to let DH deal with everything, as he had POA. Now that DFIL is dead, it's got more complicated - the POA expires on death.

OP, I think your best bet is to suggest POA, as a means of allowing you to support her if she ever has trouble with utility bills, insurance companies, etc. Even with POA in place some companies still don't make it easy, but without it she can end up in a right muddle at some point.

Personally, OP, I find your stance really rude and out of order. If my kids start that with me at any time I’ll leave the house to a fucking cats home.

ToftyAC does that include them asking about POA?

Has anyone close to you died where you have had to sort out the finances? Even when everything is in order it can be very hard work.

Once we had DM's POA in place, it made helping her sort out finances/bills etc after DF died so much easier as I could tell all the companies that we had to deal with that there was POA in place. This meant I could help lessen the burden of this for my DM whilst she coped with the emotional burden of losing her husband of over 60 years. Who wouldn't want to help someone they loved like this.

Woah, it is very scary how little people understand about POA POW.

I have seen far too many patients become prisoners in hospital (for over a year) because the patient doesn’t have capacity to decide to move into a care home.
Appointing guardianship through the courts takes a very, very long time.

I think the government should perhaps run a campaign to raise awareness.

I’ve been POA and POW for my parents for about 15 years (since my early 20s). I’ve not ever needed to use it yet, but it’s there ready just in case. So, for example, if Mum is hospitalised for a prolonged period and can’t physically get the bills sorted whilst in hospital, I can renew the house insurance for her to ensure her home and contents continue to be protected.
Dad died years ago, but I never needed to use the POA or W because he remained of sound mind to make decisions over his health, and Mum dealt with the financial etc side of things.

Mum is POA and W for several neighbours. She gets absolutely no financial gain from it, and she’s not in any wills. She just does it to help out.

As soon as our kids are old enough, we’ll get POA and W set up. It’s just sensible.

The hoarding is a different issue, I think. Royal Doulton figurines wouldn't be too bad, because someone somewhere likes them, but I can't really see any use for mouse nibbled 50 year old electricity bills. The trouble is, if you help a hoarder clear a cupboard, they just take it as an invitation to hoard some more.

OP you will just need to be ruthless when the time comes. If you have any say in the matter, get a house clearer in and be done with it.Well done with it as much as you can, because SIL and & I spent ages clearing DM's house, and then got a houseclearer in and even then SIL was with them from 8 am to 8pm. (In a two bedroom bungalow, but which had had the contents of a 4 bedroom detached and a 3 bed semi squeezed in.)

To the OP - I think you need to give your Mum a bit more time.
Like greylady I'm in the elderly category, and I know I have to get something done soon. Husband refuses point blank.
We have taken one positive step though - moved back to England and got rid of a lot of unnecessary belongings.
When my mother died I did all the clearing up of the house, executor of her will etc. Everyone else in the family were grateful. And it wasn't for the money - she left very little.

Had a will since we first owned property. We both have updated our wills and sorted out POA and lodged it all with solicitor and trusted family member. No health issues and not thinking of dying, just think it is fair on our kids that in event of an accident, it's not something they need to worry about on top of everything else. Did this not long after our kids were born, we felt it's the only responsible thing to do.

Whilst i appreciate your position in terms of the 'sorting it out when she's gone' stuff and it is really hard to do once they have gone...i saw my mum do it with her dad & my grandfather when i was 18... enjoy your mum whilst she's alive. You don't get another one. There are many on the planet who would give their right arm to even have a mum to nag. However you put it it's gonna sound like you are waiting for her to die and it's all a bit pessimistic isn't it? She probably doesn't think she needs to as she's fit and healthy but at the same time the more u nag the mire she will dig her heels in x

More*

I’ve read this article www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40887323 and the poor man would not have been better off with a court appointed deputy because the POA withdrew it in a single transaction. How would that have helped at all if they only have to provide annual accounts?! It may more accountability but overall, I disagree with the sentiment of a person being more protected with a deputy. Much financial abuse happens to people without POA. “Come on, auntie Doris. Let’s go to the bank and I can help you transfer £10,000 for the new car that I’ll use to drive you everywhere.”

That is the case Tatiana mentioned earlier. It seems something of a dilemma, pay a relatively modest amount to get PoA, or pay more and go through a more difficult and lengthy process via the Court of Protection. It still comes back to choosing your attorneys more carefully IMO.

How would that have helped at all if they only have to provide annual accounts?!

They don’t only have to provide annual accounts. But annual accounts would have helped as the man would have had to account for the transactions the end of the year. According to the article, no-one was notified and it was not until 5 years later that his DD discovered all his money was gone.

In addition a deputy has to provide a security bond upfront which is a type of insurance policy that protects the person who has lost capacity in the event of financial mismanagement. In that case the CoP orders the insurance company to cover the loss.

the poa is a good idea but lots of people never need it, or you could need it at 25.
this.
To all those who say the Op's DM at 70 is far too young to think of a POA, please listen to the experiences of others whose loved ones didn't have them when they fell ill. My DNephew needed one at 28 and was fortunate enough to be able to sign one in a brief respite in his awful condition.

You might need to let the hoarding go if it's not causing any health and safety issues but the POA is a different thing. My PILs did not want to do POA stuff, in the end when they agreed MIL was too far gone with her dementia and that cost them the chance to sell up and move to a nice bungalow suitable for their needs as their sons wouldn't go to the court of protection so they could sell up and move, instead all their savings went on a wonderful adapted extension that they enjoyed for 9 months enduring all that building work and several years of living in the unsuitable house. He died and MIL had to go into a home which ate away the remaining savings and it was only that she died that saved her from being penniless apart from the value of the house and probably my needing to move out of the nice home that she was in. When sold it raised no more than s neighbouring unextended house, their final years would have been easier and happier had they been able to do differently. And the worry and strain on the family was astronomical. FIL had wanted a bungalow but she wanted to stay in the house.

For those of you who are struggling why don’t you contact your local Fire Service and request a home fire safety visit. They will send someone around to advise and if they see huge amounts of clutter this will = a fire risk and offer help guidance to clear up. If they have huge concerns they can report it as a safeguarding concern and they could be forced to address the issue.