to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

Our parents refusal to deal with any kind of planning has prompted us to sort ourselves out. We'd hate for our kids to go through this. Apparently it is never too early in your life to get a POA in place.

I am 41, fit and healthy, but I still have a Power of Attorney document set up. I am also the Power of Attorney for a relative who is currently completely capable. But we have both seen a mutual relative be in a situation where they were no longer able to control any aspects of their life, and it was only having had proper documentation (POA) in place that meant that their wishes were able to be upheld. Wills and POA are not about being 'old'. It's about making sure that your wishes are upheld, either in life or in death.

After watching the mess that was my DGMs death and then the pickle that was her estate and clearing her house. It's not irresponsible to get a will & a PoA. I'm 28 and have done my health & financial PoAs and will be making a will shortly.

Anyone can have an illness or accident and I've seen the stress DGMs head in the sand approach gave my mother. I sat down with my parents and discussed wishes, we've all done our PoAs. Just in case.

In your Aunt's case Tatiana, there seems to be substantially more money and property involved than there is in the average case. Yes, the sick, elderly and disabled can and are taken advantage of at times, but for most the PoA will just oil the wheels at a time of potential stress.

POA is the priority here. As said above, everyone who thinks that it’s “too early” to arrange one is totally missing the point. POA have to be put in place before capacity is compromised - if you wait till it’s needed then it’s too late!

My parent did POAs in their late 60s, without prompting. A cousin of my mums died suddenly, without leaving a will and as she had no husband / child / parents it fell to my mum and sister to sort out everything. It was a real wake up call for them: even though it didn’t involve POA they saw just how much mess a sudden death (or incapacitating event) can cause.

MyPIL were more resistant: they didn’t feel they were “at that stage yet”... but we did encourage them, and just as well since MIL has since deteriorated rapidly and been diagnosed with Parkinson’s. She barely has capacity now, her POA was done in the nick of time. With it, FIL and her children get to make decisions on her behalf: without it, she’d be at the mercy of social care.

I would even go so far as to tell your relatives your wishes on things like life prolonging treatment. Some people with say cancer want to try all the treatments going, others say no.

My own parents made sure we knew what their wishes were. As it happened it never came to that.

Tatiana I respect your decision and your right to not have POA. However, you are giving incorrect information. I assume you had a negative experience with POA and for that, I am sorry. After all these years and despite dealing with hundreds of people, I still find it very distressing when a vulnerable individual has been a victim of abuse. I know of no evidence to suggest a deputy is less likely to abuse the individual compared to POA or even not having anything in place. If you know any differently, I am more than happy to be corrected. I am always open to learning. The application process is simply that. Abuse tends to happen down the line and believe me, it is not just those without funds who steal from their relatives. You’d be surprised.

You have made me reconsider my feelings about POA. I, perhaps mistakenly, felt it was handing over control of finances and general decisions to someone else now.
I would be very happy for dd to have such a responsibility eventually with a dear friend as the second. My ds lives abroad and it isn’t something I feel comfortable about giving dsc. Dss1 is joint executor of our wills which are up to date.
I will talk to a solicitor about it.

We do have paid up funeral plans though.

It's a very practical thing to do. I think it's a very practical thing to discuss as well but you do sound quite emotionally charged over it (perhaps rightly so given that you'll be the one sorting the shit out).

Can you speak calmly with your mum and say "I know you're fit and healthy. I love you with all my heart. But I am terrified about when the day does come, that the fall out will be huge. We will all have to deal with grief and mental health. To deal with a messy will as well would break us. Please could you think about sorting this out?"

It's not fair that you will have to deal with it. Wills and death are messy enough as it is. I suspect she doesn't want to feel pressured over it so the best way is to approach it as above. No pressure, just a plea.

MIL did a PoA when she was in her 60s and she has always had a (thankfully very simple) will. The paperwork sat in my filing cabinet for 36yrs and never needed to be used. When she died at 96 she had been fit and well, living in her own home and dh inherited everything.

It still took months to sort out! She had 96yrs worth of stuff in her 4 bed house, including items from her own parents and inlaws. We now have two small boxes with interesting stuff we found that we kept. Everything else we charity shopped/gave away/tipped but it took weeks of sorting which was only made easier because she lived next door to us.

We are in our 60s. We have wills and PoA set up and we do not hoard anything. There is a clearly marked box file with paperwork and instructions for our boys walking them through what they need to do. Everything will be split 50/50 regardless of any situation we or they find themselves in when we die.

I was exhausted after MILs death. Looking after my own family, working and grieving takes its toll without having to wade through courts and family strife. Why would you not make things easier for those left behind if you can?

70 is absolutely not too early to get POA's in place.

DP's did theirs (and DM's will) after DM had a stroke in her seventies. Prior to that they were both pretty fit and active. DF was taken unexpectedly ill a couple of years later and died within a week. Having the POA meant we could ensure his wishes were followed.

I'm 50's and plan on enacting POA's and updating my will in the not too distant future. Hopefully they won't be needed for a very long time but with both DP's having had strokes I'm not taking any chances.

If a person is happy with how things are distributed under intestacy rules, they don't need a will. My father died without a will and it was fine. His estate was distributed according to the rules of intestacy and it didn't take long at all.

It is more difficult if there is an old will that hasn't been updated. My aunt's will specified 2 executors both of which had since died. It was time consuming and bureaucratic to get this sorted out. No will at all would have been easier. So I wouldn't recommend someone make a will unless they're going to keep it up to date

It is more difficult if there is an old will that hasn't been updated. My aunt's will specified 2 executors both of which had since died. It was time consuming and bureaucratic to get this sorted out. No will at all would have been easier. So I wouldn't recommend someone make a will unless they're going to keep it up to date

^THIS^ WITH BELLS ON.

If a will is too old, it could fail and the estate could effectively end up intestate if it mentions specific amounts (and there's no cash any more), executors and beneficiaries who have died, marriages or spouses who have since divorced or a specific address which has since been sold.

An out of date will is worse than having no will at all.

OP, you sound like you expect your mum to spend the rest if her life living in a half empty house to save you the trouble of clearing it. For that alone, YABU.

Tenerife

What on earth are you talking about? I have never said I did not or would not have PoA. Please read my posts properly. You’ve invented a narrative that is complete nonsense.

I took legal advice when setting up PoA for my aunt and was advised on the differences between PoA and CoP for financial matters. I was alerted to the problems with PoA as regards lack of safeguards and transparency, but I chose PoA nonetheless.

As mentioned above, the retired judge Denzil Lush, author of the definitive legal guide to PoA, who has adjudicated on 6000 PoA cases, warned last year of the of the lack safeguards around PoA.

Here is the BBC report on the matter: link

A retired senior judge has warned of the lack of safeguards in the power of attorney system in England and Wales.

Denzil Lush says people should be far more aware of the risks and has vowed to never sign one himself.

The article makes the same point I have wrt CoP checks and balances:

The retired judge said there is far more scrutiny from the outset with a deputy as they have to provide a full list of assets, and annual accounts.

Deputies also have to provide a security bond, which can be easily claimed if there is a problem with money being spent inappropriately.

The report also details a case of financial abuse of PoA, and notes that the Ministry of Justice finds that the number of investigations into attorneys by the Office of the Public Guardian had risen by nearly 50% compared with previous year.

It’s not that a deputy is ‘less likely’ to abuse the system than PoA, simply that the CoP system is harder to abuse as there is more transparency.

I somehow don't think the presence or absence of a PoA is going to stop the unscrupulous from trying to wheedle money out of people.

There was a thread on MN some months back, where a 'friend' was wheedling her way into the Poster's mother's affairs, and trying to shut the Poster out. I don't know what happened in the end.

As I said upthread, the fact that I and my mum have POA for my dad has stopped my unscrupulous brother bankrupting him.

It’s not, but PoA gives people power and opportunity that they wouldn’t otherwise have. To take the example of Frank Willett - the theft from the bank accoount was only possible because Colin Blake had direct access to it and was not required to account for his financial transactions. The theft of the medals, jewellery and photographs could presumably have occurred without it.

I don't know Frand Willett, but I could just as easily imagine an unscrupulous person 'helping' by just saying '"I'll get some cash for you, just give me your bank card and PIN." and a slightly confused but still deemed competent person hands it over in good faith.Only to find that their account has been raided. It happens.

Tatiana you said that you haven't gone through the court of protection route yourself, and have now said you chose POA yourself over CoP in spite of the advice given. Why doesn't the advice you are giving others (about a process that is arduous and distressing in a way you don't seem to comprehend, and haven't experienced yourself) apply to you?

Peregrina that's exactly what happened with one of the people I know. The court of protection process took ages, was no end of trouble, and lots of money had been stolen by the time it was completed. It was a nightmare.

We found we were able to prevent a lot of "fraud" when we had power of attorney- my mil had been signed up by several unscrupulous companies for direct debits and regular delivery of things she didn't need, many took advantage of her obvious dementia.. Other firms had her signing up for new drives, boilers and a roof that she clearly didn't need. We were able to stop it. We were also able to set up direct debits to prevent her gas and electricity being cut off (because she hadn't remembered to pay bills).

All this suggests is that you take the greatest of care when choosing the person or people you want to act as your attorney(s), rather than it being inherently bad.

thegreylady do you want to talk to my mum? Maybe you can get her to see sense. I'm glad my thread has generated at least had one convert! I can see that in terms of her hoarding I just have to shut up (thank you MNers), but I may just print out this thread, there are so many good examples, and show it to her as a final attempt at getting her to do her PoA and Will, and then I will stop nagging.