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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

326 replies

DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 21:51

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

OP posts:
SonEtLumiere · 21/10/2018 21:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IStandWithPosie · 21/10/2018 21:56

“Include include” eh? Confused

What is it you’re trying to say? It sounds like you’re just saying “stop being wrong”

Original poster
DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 21:57

It does sound glib, because if you read my post I think it is obvious she is a predator. But if you need it spelled out, she is deceptive and the systems that should have been in place allowed her to manipulate and abuse.

OP posts:
abbsisspartacus · 21/10/2018 21:58

Paragraphs would be helpful

Original poster
DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 21:58

Include the disenfranchised, include the marginalised. Include those that feminist organisations back. And yes, stop being wrong....of course.

OP posts:
ThatssomedeadbratCarrie · 21/10/2018 21:58

Drinking on a Sunday?!

TheClitterati · 21/10/2018 21:59

What do you as a feminist have to say to the distress of Karen's victims, no doubt intensified by hearing time and time again in court, in the media, and by people like you who are all insisting that they were "raped by a woman?"

anotherGCacademic · 21/10/2018 21:59

Genuine question: would you be ok to share female spaces with male-bodied people, including loos, gym changing rooms etc... for you and your daughters? This really worries me. No issue with people identifying as they wish, but a real problem with conflating gender and sex. Are you ok with that, with the idea that a person with male genitals and a beard is as much a woman as you and has the same rights reserved for women as you?

Original poster
DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 21:59

Paragraphs would be helpful fair enough...I'll copy/paste and sort this out.

OP posts:
Yambabe · 21/10/2018 21:59

Hi Donkey. Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the EA 2010. Trans people are absolutely entitled to the right to live their lives free from discrimination and abuse for being trans.

What rights do you feel they are currently denied?

Iaimtomisbehave1 · 21/10/2018 22:00

I have no objections to self ID and am happy to share women's toilets and changing with a transgender woman. My concern is the possibility that men (Not transgender women, just men) who are predators and use this as an opportunity to gain access to lone women in an enclosed space whilst they are semi or completely nude. The transgender women are not the problem. It's the men who will use it to make their predator or peeping behaviour easier. How do we protect against that if the man can just say "but I identify as a woman so I'm not leaving"... we wouldn't be able to stop them.

And then there's the issue of transgender women competing against other women in a woman's competition. As much as they identify as a woman, their physical make up is different. It is an unfair advantage. And biological woman will miss out.

And what about the transgender woman demanding smear tests? They have identified as female with their GP so they receive the notice to attend a smear test... And they attend and expect to have it. They don't have a cervix. The doctor just has to pretend to do it. Did I miss something, because I'm pretty sure the NHS should not be eating resources like that.

Self ID may or may not be the right way to go, but I havnt seen a satisfactory answer to ease those concerns... And a few others.

kawla · 21/10/2018 22:00

What do you want exactly?

IStandWithPosie · 21/10/2018 22:00

the systems that should have been in place allowed her to manipulate and abuse.

The systems allowed her to manipulate and abuse. Glad you said that.

RiverTam · 21/10/2018 22:00

You’re referring to that foul rapist as ‘she’. Even on MN it’s permiited to speak the truth in this one. Karen is a MAN. A raping, child-abusing MAN.

I’m not debating with anyone who still refers to Karen White as she. You dismiss and offend all women and girls everywhere when you do that.

cardibach · 21/10/2018 22:01

Just to address one part of that, nobody calls trans women ‘lady dicks’ on here. That phrase has been used by TRAs to taunt women - as in ‘suck my lady dick’. If you can find a post using it in any other way I’d be very surprised.

Original poster
DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 22:02

With paragraphs

The trans threads on here pop up every day.

The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls.

But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause.

But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear.

You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include.

You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

there you go: paragraphs just for you

OP posts:
WickedLazy · 21/10/2018 22:02

"feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons".

Still waiting to hear these reasons..?

abbsisspartacus · 21/10/2018 22:03

No one with a penis should be allowed in a woman only space my nine year old has one he uses the men's room and men's changing rooms at the pool

His hair is longer than my daughters

Original poster
DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 22:03

You’re referring to that foul rapist as ‘she’. Even on MN it’s permiited to speak the truth in this one. Karen is a MAN. A raping, child-abusing MAN.

Totally agree with that. My bad there.

OP posts:
Branleuse · 21/10/2018 22:04

Karen white is a man. Thats why people are pissed off, because these ridiculous self id proposals that seem to be already enacted in the prison service it seems are exacy what led these women to be assaulted

Original poster
DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 22:05

Karen White: he is a foul piece of predatory shit. It's not about him though.

OP posts:
ThrownMuse · 21/10/2018 22:05

I am with you here, and as an academic and activist trust my own judgement and position on why I am a trans ally and support the community. It does not compromise my feminism, it enriches it.

But you will not find many of the same opinion here and I would get ready to hear some tough responses. I decided many years ago to not engage with trans related topics here. I would advise you to direct your energy elsewhere, for your own peace of mind.

Solidarity, though.

FermatsTheorem · 21/10/2018 22:05

Of course transwomen should have human rights. They just don't get to make a land-grab for women's rights, because women's rights are to do with either our biology or to do with our historical oppression and the unequal place that leaves us in now, due to people having abused our biology in the past.

Still credit for being consistent and calling Karen White "she" - at least you haven't had the bare faced cheek to play the "no true trans" card. Obviously it's false that White is a "she", however.

RiverTam · 21/10/2018 22:06

Your bad? You used female pronouns about KW six times. That’s not a mistake, that’s purposeful. You come on to the FWR board and refer to a rapist as female six times and then shrug it off as ‘my bad’????

ThatssomedeadbratCarrie · 21/10/2018 22:07

RiverTam wholeheartedly agree. That thing is a man, a he.