AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

How is it that you are 'better informed' than Professor Kathleen Stock, OP?

The Smear test thing was false news. We don't fall for false news in all other spheres. Let's not here?

*This week an anonymous Twitter account shared a bizarre story that a nurse had been forced to perform three “cervical smears” on trans women who did not have a cervix. Their avatar displayed a copy of the Fair Play for Women logo.

If anyone had paused and spoken to a trans person about this, they would know that not only did this absolutely not happen, but that trans women are often bemused at best when they are called in for a cervical smear, frustrated at a health system that doesn’t quite understand trans identities yet.

However, that did not stop accounts with huge followings from sharing the story, showing that even those we consider to provide good analysis may not be interested in applying the same rigour to trans rights.

With the debate so heavily influenced by these groups, it’s no wonder that a narrative proclaiming trans rights must come at the cost of women’s has found mainstream attention, while sneaky facts that contradict it have been quietly relegated to the back room.*

Self harm and suicide dont need a change in the law to be addressed. Mh services need better funding and investment in training. That would benefit lots of people.

You know what else would benefit lots and lots of people? An end to toxic masculinity. Harsher sentences for genderbased violence. Make it ok to be a man who wears what he wants. Make it ok and normal for men to talk about their feelings. Start measuring well being. That would help us all to live happier healthier lives. But I dont see any tras campaigning for that.

Interesting that you dont include Karen as a woman. Because if the law changes you dont get to pick and choose who it applies to. We are all equal before the law. The rules apply to us all, not just who tras deem worthy.

Oh spoke too soon. You admit White is a bloke. But if it's all about "respecting people's self-declared identity", do you have any handy hints as to how the hell we tell the difference between "true trans" and "lying sexual predator" please? Handy hints that work in time to avoid being assaulted, not after the fact?

Is 'What is a woman?' a complicated question? I don't think so. A woman is an adult human female. That's it. Born biologically female, you're a girl and you grow up to be a woman.

Trans women are biological males who are happier living in accordance with female stereotypes than male. Fair enough. But they're not women.

Live as you want
Trans is fine. Just don't redefine what woman means
If trans women had accepted they were trans women and different to women we wouldn't have this message now
Biological women are a distinct sex category.

I am perhaps one of the ‘more moderate but less well informed’ you have in mind. I had very little knowledge or understanding of this issue until I read various threads on Mumsnet, and I have to say that I have found the reasoned and measured arguments presented by the ‘Mumsnet Massive’ a great deal more persuasive than those on the other side.

What frustrates me is the refusal by those arguing for self-ID to acknowledge the validity of the concerns presented by those arguing against. The concerns are simply dismissed as transphobia and there is apparently no room for debate.

So Karen White was a she under trans ideology. Was sent to a woman prison etc.

Op when exactly did KAREN stop being a she to you? Presumably as a supporter of self id at some point you believed they were a "she" and you supported their right to "be a woman"?

At what point does the womanhood leave a trans woman exactly?

I think trans people should be able to get jobs, live there day to day life with out hatred or discrimination and with the human rights that they already have.
I don't believe that should include going into the wrong sex segregated places such as women's toilets, women's changing rooms etc for trans women, crimes comitted should be recorded by sex, prisons should be sex segregated.

I don't believe that believing we should maintain sex segregated places and that sex can't be changed makes me on the wrong side of history.

It is about Karen White though, he is exactly what it's about. 'It will never happen', but it has, a predatory man has used the transgender idealogy to enable him to abuse vulnerable women.

"What constitutes a woman".

Adult human female.

Not sure it is sneaky to say this.

Scotland has well and truly drunk the kool-aid. Can tell you right now though that despite radio ads telling the bigots and phobes to get oot - on a street level nobody's buying it.

Tomorrow morning I need to phone women's aid for help. I don't want to deal with a man. Not even one wearing a frock prettier than mine own.

Exactly pucking. You can’t simply say, yes, Karen White is a bad person, but let’s ignore that and move on.

OP, it is about Karen though. In as much as it highlights how easy it would be for sexual predators to exploit a Self-ID system, no? I think most posters just want a more robust system, not no system at all.

DonkeyHotei
So your belief is that anyone who say’s they’re a woman is one; because they say so?
That means that there is then no measure of womanhood & it’s a complete denial of biology.

Males have 30% more muscle mass.
Sexual Assault by a male bodied human vs a Female bodied human is very different in terms of long term trauma. The former can cause unwanted pregnancies & a far higher likelihood of contracting a serious STD.

There is a reason for sex segregation. I would be able to defend myself against a female attacker. I wouldn’t stand a chance against a Male one.

You may view your denial of biology as being on ‘the right side of history’ but many view it as 1) putting females safety at risk and
2) Offensive! Females are oppressed because of their biology!
If someone is ‘transgender’ as in they’re Male and will dress as a woman sometimes, but choose to keep their Male anatomy, I don’t see how that’s different to a white person ‘blacking up’ every now and then because they ‘identify’ as a black person. Its grim.

There either is a measurable difference between men and women.

Or there is no difference, at which point- why identify as the oppressed minority & keep claiming your Male Privilege? It’s offensive.

'What constitutes a women' is not an infinitely complex question. It never has been.

'Who should we include in female spaces?' and 'should we sometimes ignore biology in favour of stated gender identity?' and 'is feminism about inclusivity and making the whole world a better place, or is it about preserving and promoting female rights?' - these are complex questions, or at least worthy of debate. But no debate was permitted.

Instead, we've all been told what a woman is (anyone who feels like a woman), told what to accept and what to ignore, and told how to first incorporate then centre trans rights in feminism.

You've engaged vigorously on several trans-related threads. Why do you need a spotlit tirade like this, if it's all so self-evident and the weight of the better-informed is firmly behind you?

GRA consultation closes tomorrow, in case anyone is wondering about the timing of this.

the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights....

Whoa Nellie....I don't think I have ever seen posters on mumsnet denying that trans people deserve human rights. I have also not seen anyone called a scumbag for saying they support self ID.

I too would love to know what those complex reasons are.

First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit.

I have never seen anyone be called a "scumbag" on here for holding the views you do. I've seen their arguments pulled to pieces and flattened embarrassingly but never insults like that and if there have been then they'll have been deleted by MNHQ who are very hot on personal attacks especially around the trans discussions. I get so irritated with this kind of constant hyperbole from trans supporters, it's simply not true and feels like you're trying to instigate such insults so you can rush back to Twitter or some other echo chamber and tell them all that MN have been big meanies to you. Most disingenuous.

OK...trying to deal with the multitude of arguments thrown down.

Firstly, thank you ThrownMuse...I agree, and also it doesn't matter and moreover, I get to walk away from these people. But I wanted to be brave enough to say my piece.

As for the Karen White issue: I'm not familiar with the workings of the mind of predators.....they occupy my thoughts far far less than the rights of the people behind whom I stand. I have no agenda in referring to his personal pronouns. I give him no thought space other than that of an evil cunt. Clear enough?

It's all gone a bit Jame Gumb. AGP extraordinaire.

So - I was pro trans for many, many years. I was supportive, I had no problem sharing facilities at work, or in public places. Absolutely zero. I posted in Style and Beauty on purpose threads where transwomen asked for advice. I have big feet and am tall so passed on advice on where to get boots (Duo btw). Transwomen joined us on girls nights out, in book clubs, slimming groups, even a quilting group. And they were welcomed.

Then the TRAs started saying they were actually women. And not just those suffering from a mental illness that might be eased by surgery or changing appearance. Also cross dressers, those who fetishized dressing and being accepted as a (usually overly sexual, dominated) woman are now actually That we we’re menstruators, civic havens. Vagina monologues were cancelled, pink pussy hats not allowed at women’s marches (not inclusive enough). Gender (how we behave) replaced and was conflated with sex (production of sperm or eggs). Lesbians expected to sleep with male bodies people who say THEY TOO are lesbians. The lady dick thing comes from these people. Not from women.
The demand for Self ID. The demand that we change our language AND the way we think, our beliefs You can be banned, silenced, threatened with rape, punched, lose our jobs if we do not believe.

This crusade has actually hurt women, and the transexuals that it proports to support.

And no one talks about it openly because they are afraid of the consequences.

Genuinely interested, who's Karen and what is this about?

Karen White should be called a woman according to trans-inclusive ideology. Own that, or let us know what line you draw for what is a "true" woman. Others have drawn a line which you don't agree with. What's yours?

Stop calling Karen she ffs

WOMEN DONT HAVE A PENIS AND RAPE WITH IT.

how the hell we tell the difference between "true trans" and "lying sexual predator" please?

You wait until an assault is committed. This indicates that the person is not really trans, and that they should never be referenced in a debate about trans rights and women's spaces.

Handy hints that work in time to avoid being assaulted, not after the fact?

Oh.