AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

Heartfelt explanations of why this puts women at risk-

They know

they just don’t care

What sort of world values male delusion above a woman presenting indisputable fact?

Forcing the BBC and big companies to reveal their pay gap is a sign that campaigning on wage discrimination is getting worse?

It's kind of ironic that this has been mentioned as a way of showing that things are getting better for women. For example, I'd imagine that Pippa Bunce's salary at Credit Suisse has a rather nice effect of making it look as if the average salary for female employees is higher than it is. That's not a victory for women.

But the bunce is one a woman part of the week. They will need to up their man-to-female ratio to close the gap a bit more.

Do you think they get the kids up, make breakfast, stick the laundry on, get ready for work, take the kids to a school, go to work, pick up shopping and dry cleaning at lunch time, pick up kids after a school, go home, hang up laundry, empty dishwasher, make dinner, sit shotgun over homework, do the ironing for the next day and put the kids to bed on their 'girl days'? 🙄

Self-ID destroys women’s rights by legally uncoupling ‘woman’ and ‘female’ from biology.

This uncoupling took place years ago when it first became possible to obtain a GRC and yet here we are, still campaigning against the pay gap and maternity discrimination and period poverty and sexual harrasment.

I’d be quite happy for people to obtain legal recognition of their gender. So long as it is clear that gender is not sex.

This is and always has been clear

Which is it? Because both cannot be true.

Gender is pretty meaningless. I don't use it these days.

Has there still been no answer to my question of last night.

The question was, does a 7 year old or 10 year old or 16 year old girl have the right to use a gym or swimming changing room without seeing a naked adult penis?

Lots of earnest debate, no answer to that question.

I'm guessing that means the answer is no.

It's just a penis, right. Get over it.

No, no, no! For goodness sake, to the woman asking about a girl seeing a penis in a changing room, it is ABUSE, child sexual ABUSE for an adult to show their genitals to a child. Get over it?! These transactivists need bloody locked up.

Not the best definition here - flashing, but that's what it is, and it's non contact sexual abuse. www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/child-sexual-abuse/

My local pool only has male and female communal changing facilities. There are no cubicles and everybody has to shower naked before using the pool

Where on earth is this? That you have to shower naked in swimming pools before going in? Are you in the UK? I've literally never seen that and I've been in loads of pools. Do they make you take your clothes off before a swim or something?

Definitely never buying from topshop ever again.

My local pool only has male and female communal changing facilities. There are no cubicles and everybody has to shower naked before using the pool

Where on earth is this?

I can think of at least 3 pools local to me where this is the case - one a small, community owned and run pool, the second a university one open to the public at limited times, and the third an old-style 50s lido type place. Not at all an uncommon arrangement in non-metropolitan areas where facilities are old and funds for updating them are limited.

Why can people on here never accept that their small slice of the UK might not be representative of the whole country?

I live in N.I and communal changing rooms, with a smaller adjacent room for team changing, that can be booked, are common here, in my area at least. Our two closest leisure centres are like this. Three cubicles to shower, a communal shower area, a communal changing room, and side room, which may or may not be locked, depending on the day. Then there's the loo cubicles, which are usually soaked.

Another from Scotland.
Less than 1% of Scottish residents responded positively to the consultation. The majority didn't even know it was happening. Much like when they changed the meaning of woman in Scotland with no consultation. I can't believe I am saying this, but the only party in Scotland to vote against it was the conservatives!
So no, Scotland is not all for self id but it will be forced upon us by people who don't even have the guts to hold a proper debate.
I'm all for everyone having rights and having freedoms to have a wonderful life. However one group does not have the right to take the hard fought for rights of another whilst denying them the right to challenge this. It's the process, more than the outcome the scares me most and makes me very worried for a future where my daughters become second class citizens like their great, great grandmother's.

Where on earth is this? That you have to shower naked in swimming pools before going in?

It’s commonly accepted practice in pretty much ever pool I’ve been to in every country I’ve lived in. Including Scotland.

Blanche's info not quite accurate...

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/single-sex-and-separate-services-for-men-and-women-when-discrimination-is-allowed/

"If you’re a transsexual person, you mustn’t be excluded from separate or single sex services provided to people of your chosen gender, unless there’s agood enough reasonfor excluding you."

"Services should be provided to you according to the sex in which you present. In particular, if you have agender recognition certificateyou mustn’t be excluded from single sex services."

"What’s a good enough reason?

If a service provider wants to restrict their services to one sex only or provide separate services for men and women they need to show they have agood enough reasonfor doing this. This means they should only restrict services if this is absoutelynecessary.

Here are examples of reasons traders or service providers often use:

Health and safety, the welfare of individuals, running an efficient service."

Legal Self ID will make it easier for the Karen Whites of the world to harm women, and harder for previously sex protected services to be restricted to females only. Men who haven't transed taking up space on gynae waiting lists, to discuss their male periods never mind what else could be affected.

Sorry only catching up with the thread properly now.

"perhaps you can take comfort from the fact that the impact on you was so negligible you didn’t even realise what was happening..."

Yes, when I was sexually assaulted years ago now, when I was 16, (by an autogenyphile, abusive boyfriend, with an increasingly apparent number of fetishes, who then eventually decided he was really a women, and I was really a lesbian), I didn't realise what was happening. But certainly not because the impact was so bloody negligible. I knew he was getting a big sexual kick out of it all, and it didn't feel right. Putting womens underwear on, then ejeculating within seconds in excitement, insisting he wasn't gay, he felt like a lesbian, but was very keen on me pegging him, and confessed to having a recurring fantasy about being taken by a big buff black man from behind (common amongst lesbians, I'd imagine ).

There was a time I'd have been too ashamed to type any of that. I still don't think I could talk about it irl, now less than ever. That "relationship" was quite traumatic. I knew a few drag queen types, but this guy was different. I thought I'd met some lone, one off deviant. It wasn't until I joined MN and read about autogynephilia, that it clicked. Even here, in my boring remote, suburban part of the UK, the reality is, not all "transmen" are what they seem. Some are dangerous, especially to women. My ex was lying to his Dr's about all sorts. He'd dressed as a woman for 6 months (lie), wasn't bisexual (lie), and so on. No idea where he is now, or if he had the surgery. The last I heard from him, he'd changed his mind (I didn't reply). The thought of him in a changing room naked and alone with teenage girls makes my skin crawl.

*sorry "transwomen" (you know what I mean..)

Finally finished all 13 pages. Of course the op hasn't been back. Apparently being silenced means ignoring questions and flouncing.

flexes bolding/quoting skills and dives in

RatUnholyRolyPoly

"I'm afraid I think the Fawcett society, like so many organisations set up to address the structural inequality of WOMEN, have rather lost their way."

"People in this country have had enough of experts". Anti-intellectualism at its best.

Anti-intellectual would be mindlessly following any authority because 'expert'
I expect experts to be able to communicate their case clearly, not stamp their feet demanding unthinking capitulation respect.

Blanchedupetitpois
Language adapts and we find new definitions to ensure that words are reflective of the reality of an ever changing world
I expect the side arguing for law change to be able to explicitly and non circularly (ie, don't use the subject word in the definition, logix 101) define their terms.
Let's start with gender, sex, woman, man, female, male, transgender. When you've actually done that, then I'll listen to you - because I'll at least be able to translate your pomo nonsense language.

Blanchedupetitpois
It is hugely relevant for transgender people who want legal recognition of their gender. It is necessary for updating certain legal documents with ones acquired gender. Or many trans people the GRC isn’t a means to an end, like marriage - it is an end in itself.
Again, define gender (I know you tried up thread - it was circular and subjective, not at all a convincing foundation for law making)
Why is someone's innate sense of female or male ness (after you've defined the 'sense' of female and male) necessary for legal recognition - especially to override their sex? What other subjective internal sense is recognised legally? Even my internal religious sense isn't 'recognised' legally this way, I don't update my birth certificate or drivers licence or marriage certificate if I convert.

Bowlofbabelfish

How can you put gender in law?

What is gender? How would you define ‘female’ gender for the law? It’s just a set of stereotypes- which ones are going to be defined in law as the proper ones? What if I don’t display those behaviours?

A-frickin-men. Answer Bowl's questions properly first, then argue your case.

Blanchedupetitpois
This is actually an interesting point.
Patronising.

Of course the op hasn't been back

... except for the several posts when she did come back. But don't let the facts get in the way, will you?

Lol Volant.
This thread is here in black and white, it's clear who is being disingenuous.

Services should be provided to you according to the sex in which you present. In particular, if you have agender recognition certificateyou mustn’t be excluded from single sex services."

The EHRC recently had to change their guidance to take that sentence out. TRAs disingenuously claim that having a GRA makes no difference, and then you have EHRC and CAB contradicting that in black and white. They were challenged by FPFW.

Having a GRC would almost certainly be considered a higher bar to justify exclusion in a discrimination case.

Predators spend years training in the priesthood, as teachers and sports leaders to access women and children, of course they will exploit this loop hole

Any new rules will not even be making it difficult, they will pay a small amount and get a certificate if they even bother. Cos just say the words eh.
No more training in a sport to gain access, maybe religions will die a death? Why bother teacher training for all those years. Don't even have to volunteer anywhere. Sigh.
Just for rat, I actually have said a few times, I want the whole thing got rid of.
Be whatever you want, dress how you please, speak in a "feminine " way I never have cared, but no more using my toilet or changing room or god forbid my jail cell.
For the future, if this is going to happen, every single month I will "change my gender"
And hopefully campaign for all genders, each one requiring a sole use toilet, change room, prison, hospital etc.
Until someone in power is fucked off at me enough to change it back. Whereupon I will still not let trans women in.
Thank you.

Human sexuality is complex...