AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

You felt a burning need to post this thread and then went to bed 40 mins later - not very committed to it were you?!
You wrote this:
If anyone had paused and spoken to a trans person about this, they would know that not only did this absolutely not happen, but that trans women are often bemused at best when they are called in for a cervical smear, frustrated at a health system that doesn’t quite understand trans identities yet
Wtaf do you expect from the health system? Trans people we are told want this identity changed. Their birth certificates altered. Never to be "dead named". Plans under the GRA would mean you would not should not reveal the person had ever been their original set. So how is a local GP supposed to cater appropriately for their "trans identity"? I really despair.
I've been on here a while and have never seen even the most pissed off poster in FWR ever call another poster a scumbag. Are you sure you read that right?

They are TOO SCARED of being told they are transphobic if they speak out against it. Waken up, please.

I don't feel hard core about anything but having experienced life as a woman and all of the boundary violations that that incurred I agree with the mumsnet consensus that women need safe spaces. Why that angers the trans activists so much I don't know. If a trans man has surgery to remove his penis then they should be entitled to the paper work to give them female ID but until then, they shoudl not be entitled to identification that allows them access to women's spaces.

This isn't something that should make trans women angry! why it angers trans women that women want safety is really offensive.
Also, crimes statistics should be reported properly. If the karen whites of this world go down in history with their crimes recorded as having been perpetrated by women that would be very very wrong and dangerous for women as then it could be shown by transactivists that women don't need safe spaces as 'they' are also violent.
Total disregard for the safety of women does scare me.

Your arguments regarding trans rights and self ID make no logical sense OP. That’s why you’re not persuading anyone, not because everyone m here is transphobic. And please don’t make fallacious comparisons with race or gay rights because those are not analogous here.

OK, it's late at night; I opened a thread but also responded to arguments that disagreed with me. Can i reserve the right to go to bed now

Of course.

Will be interested to see if you return tomorrow and answer the questions. There hasn't been any transphobia, just questions.

Enjoy your kip.

"they occupy my thoughts far far less than the rights of the people behind whom I stand."

Maybe this is the issue here OP. You're blindly supporting rather than assessing the risk and seeing how self-id is opening the floodgates for abusers and the salami effect (oh the irony in that term) of the erosion and dilution of WOMEN'S rights.

The outward gender stereotypical female ways of dressing and behaviour don’t make someone a woman, and it never will. Transwomen will always be transwomen, not women.

Crimes recorded as female crimes, perpetual lack of reporting due to less than receptive criminal justice system, climate of "transphobia" means less reporting, Irish still segregate prisons on sex not gender. Off the top of my head.

Perhaps also fewer people who wish to align themselves to the British TRA cohort who largely seem to have some very strange reasons to be pushing through self id (flashers, adult baby fetishists, age of consent abolishinists, extreme porn fanatics).

@fieldgold Irish prisoners are housed according to their birth gender, but there have been complaints about this.

fieldgold - population is certainly one aspect of it, plus a conservative society in much of the country making coming out as gay or trans difficult for many. Ireland's self-ID laws crucially do not apply to prisons, so a transwoman would be housed in the male estate without exception. And of course official stats become harder to interrogate once crimes committed by transwomen get mixed up with those recorded by women, so identifying issues is near impossible. (On the last, look at how the number of "women convicted of rape" has shot up in England in recent years...when under English law rape is only committed with a penis....)

Sex not gender duh.

How about transboys. OP? If this isn't social contagion, why is it that there's been a 4000% increase in referrals to gender clinics? Have you seen photos where girls' arms are literally skinned, so they can have an approximation of a penis, that will never be functional? How come transwomen make the news for winning awards, and speaking on behalf of women, and transmen make the news for having babies?

Why aren't we telling these girls that they're just as valid being lesbians (because that's what most of them will realise they are, eventually). Why are we reinforcing these strict gender stereotypes that they should be either Barbie or Action Man, and if they're not, they're trans.

How did Mermaids get to infiltrate schools with their trans ideology, when it's well known that Susie Green has her child's penis removed when they were 16 years old?

There's a lot to answer before we all walk blindly into this.

Fieldgold i believe one answer is that the 'self-id' law for ireland contains multiple exemptions where no truck with self id of sex is actually had - including prisons, i believe hospitals, anywhere with sleeping accommodation? Sorry too lazy to google the details.

In the uk the push for self id seems to require belief that 'trans women are women, trans men are men' and organisations appear to be refusing to take the legitimate route of relying on sex as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act on order to provide a single biological sex service; in some cases (such as Scottish refuges) they appear to have been told that all funding will be withdrawn or will be at risk if they do so. The same for Girlguiding which has overnight changed from a single sex organisation to a single gender one.

A more complex answer is to ask how you would know if there were problems, and what they would look like, or how they would be recorded or reported. Back on the uk, there has been a really big surge in recorded prisoner on prisoner sexual assaults since 2012 - the number per year has doubled in the past six years. It seems very likely that this is due to falling funding and prison officer numbrs. But could there be a correlation with 2011 prison service guidelines on placing prisoners in the estate of their 'acquired gender'? It's at least possible. How would we know, though? Assaults by prisoners are not separated out in the statistics by biological sex status.

The only voices that I see being silenced are those of GC feminists. Often when we're told to "suck my lady dick" by TRAs. At least that's one thing we agree on, OP: it's not a lady dick, it's a penis.

Olenna

Thanks for reply.

ROI has recently legislated for Gay Marriage and Abortion despite the so called conservative society underpinning these legislative changes.

I think the fact that men are men and women are women in prisons and toilets and changing rooms has helped. Haven't heard much trouble about that anyway.

Good morning OP, can you please answer Yambabes question....

What rights do you feel they are currently denied?

Annandale,

Yes, sometimes despite some vitriol about ROI and its Catholic/conservative outlook, they actually have thought this through. Hence the acceptance of trans together with the protection of non trans people too.

I salute them. There has been no instance of trans hatred or any other issues there as far as I can see. No LGBT marches or anything having a go at the law either. All is calm and good for all.

The pendulum has swung too far in the UK I think. But however.

Op lost me at 'denying trans rights as human rights'. What cut 'n paste twitter feed did that come from?

Human rights as in what? I don't remember reading 'saying you have changed sex and making everyone say it is so - or threaten then with physical harm, violence, loss of employment, general threats to their home, children and other family members'. They must've missed that bit out.

The rights of one tiny group of people - some of whom have sinister motives - cannot and should never override 50%+ of the population.

Yes yabu because your voice isn't silenced and mocked.

Outside of mumsnet, in the whole of mainstream media, your voice is magnified unreasoanbly disproportionately.

Most people agree with radical feminists, that men cannot become women, males cannot become female and female mammals do not have penises.

And yet if you look at the media, you would think that most people agree with you, OP.

So in conclusion, yabvu. You have nearly the whole of mainstream media on your side. There's a small corner of the internet where sometimes, as long as we are really, really careful to hedge our language so as not to tell the unacceptable truth, we are allowed to say something different to msm.

And you feel rage about that? Wow. Very Unreasonable indeed.

As for the Karen White issue: I'm not familiar with the workings of the mind of predators.....they occupy my thoughts far far less than the rights of the people behind whom I stand.

That's very lucky. Having worked with offenders and in homelessness and with lots of adult survivors, I am very very aware of how many men are predators. It occupies my thoughts because I have a DD. And obviously the decades of male harassment have made a dent as well.

I don't hate trans people, or want to discriminate against them or have any issue with people wearing, doing, dating, being who they want. I know loads of trans people. Get on with them extremely well.

I have an issue with the destruction of the female sex as a concept. In healthcare, justice, to organise, sports. It entirely possible to support trans people's rights AND support women as a concept remaining sex-based. We can sort out prisons and toilets and sports if people stopped screaming TWAW and demanding access to women's spaces. TW and TM (who no one seems to give a crap about, I wonder why....) are valid, important, wonderful people, who need safe space. Women do too.

BertBox - I know 5 transmen that formerly considered themselves lesbians. I think the youngest to transition was in their mid-20s. I think it’s more widely accepted these days and that’s at least part of the reason for the increase.

Being funny and provocative here. We need to ask the DUP about their views on Trans and whilst they are at it about Gay marriage and abortion too.

They are running our Government remember. So there we are.

They keep talking about preserving NI in the United Kingdom, but honestly could they be any further from the norm here. They will never look to the Republic of Ireland for any hints anyway, that's for sure!

In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons.

The reality is that these organisations support self-ID for one very simple reason: they will get their funding cut if they don’t.

I would like your suicide stats you spoke about in your op if possible please.
You see on Twitter the other day someone took the time to extrapolate the suicide statistics going back 10 years. They found within the last decade there had been 4 suicides attributed to not transitioning.

I will try and find the post again tomorrow.

yabu. Your not being silenced or mocked (by me,anyway)I genuinely have not got a clue what your point is?