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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

326 replies

DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 21:51

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

OP posts:
Lifeinthelastlane · 22/10/2018 00:37

Why wouldn't he lock the door? Well maybe because he is a cross dresser who gets sexual kicks from this and knowing you are watching him pee just puts icing on the cake?

PickAChew · 22/10/2018 00:39

Thank you wewantjustice

I'm tired of women being told to lock themselves in a cubicle for the exact same reasons that genuine transwomen don't want to share facilities with men.

Volant · 22/10/2018 00:46

The point is, WeWantJustice, that it's unrealistic to say that the existence of women only toilets protect us from sexual predators. It's childishly easy for those individuals to get in if they really want to without having to bother with any nonsense about self-identification. Being able to challenge them really won't be any comfort in that situation.

Lifeinthelastlane, again, if a man really wants to come into a women's toilet and pee with the door open, realistically there's nothing to stop him, given that the possibility of being arrested for indecent exposure apparently wouldn't be a sufficient deterrent. Exactly how often does this happen anyway?

PickaChew, I'm quite bemused at the idea that locking yourself into a cubicle in a public toilet is in some way an imposition. Maybe naively, I was under the impression that it was the norm.

TooMuchTidying · 22/10/2018 00:57

Thanks OP, it's refreshing to see someone reminding us that the anti-trans people here are in the fringes of a weird subset of feminist thought.

Do the extremists on here realise that there are trans men as well? When they fret about how women are the ones having to 'make space' for trans women, they never seem to realise that cis men also have to make space for trans men.

WeWantJustice · 22/10/2018 01:06

Volant, does my 16 year old daughter or my friend's 7 year old daughter, have the right to go in the shower after a gym workout or swim and come out of the shower to get dressed without seeing a naked adult penis in the shower next to them or in the dressing room? Should the seven year old be told "it's just a penis - get over it", as advised by a transactivist on twitter recently? And if so, should she also be advised that when a man in the park flashes at her, then she should take a similar approach? And if not, how to explain the difference in the correct response?

This offensive crap about men being able to come in the loos and attack us anyway if they want to and therefore we should let all of them in if they say they're women, is so wrong headed. What is the logic of making it easier for them? If a man with a beard walks into a woman's public toilet in the park currently, other men and/ or women nearby can see that a bloke's gone in the ladies and can go and challenge or report him.

They will not be able to do that if self-ID comes in, because they might be guilty of harassment of a protected group.

What this will do, is initially not very much. However once women start getting used to having men in their personal spaces, what they will do, is avoid using those spaces. In Norway, already women are beginning not to use the changing rooms in gyms anymore, they go home to shower and change. This restricts their lives as they can't go anywhere directly from the gym. Before the advent of sex segregated public toilets, women simply stayed close to home or when they went further afield, they had to make complicated plans to access toilet facilities at the home of a friend, a hotel etc. When we know that men will be in our spaces, using the loo will become a quick, wary, uncomfortable process, just one more place where we are reminded that we cannot take our safety in the public sphere for granted.

Why does that sound so attractive to you?

Grrrt · 22/10/2018 01:07

You know damn well that this issue isn't generally about transwomen in the next cubicle, it's about any man anywhere being able to go in, because no one will know if he's a proud inspirational transwoman or a common or garden predator and they'll feel inhibited from challenging him or complaining about his presence, because they fear being accused of harassment of a protected minority if it turns out that he's a harmless proud transwomen.
Or maybe that person was a transman, or just a butch woman.

I guess we’ll need to find a way to scan genitals on the way into bathrooms.

ContentiousOne · 22/10/2018 01:10

No, I'm comfortable with where I've landed on the issue - it's a left leaning material analysis - nothing radical. What I know to be true is that sex is immutable, that females are oppressed on the basis of their sex, that gender is a prison, and that gender non-conformity is OK.

I believe that free speech matters, that science matters, and that the right of women to self determine matters.

I also believe that no-one should be discriminated against in housing or employment on the basis of their gender presentation, nor should they struggle to access medical care on this basis, nor should they suffer violence on this basis.

Additionally, I am a proud supporter of lesbians and gays, including in my own family, and I endorse watchful waiting for children with sex confusion as the least homophobic option, given that the majority will not have intractable sex dysphoria, but will be gender non conforming homosexual adults.

There's nothing hateful about any of the above.

So I'd say you are being quite unreasonable to be raging about a reasonable position, even if you disagree with it.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/10/2018 01:11

Do the extremists on here realise that there are trans men as well? When they fret about how women are the ones having to 'make space' for trans women, they never seem to realise that cis men also have to make space for trans men.

Most of the many, many transmen I know would have been sweet, unassuming, masculine-presenting lesbians twenty years ago. They are now sweet, unassuming, masculine-presenting transmen. No men are moving up for them or making space or probably the slightest bit aware of them. They aren't winning man of the year or gold medals anywhere. They aren't on the covers of magazines or on This Morning.

You may believe they are men, they may believe they are men. I'm very worried they are young lesbian women who have internalized misogyny and homophobia. I really hope not. Because they are all lovely. And I would hate them to be unhappy, have painful surgery, take drugs that could make them infertile and stay in denial, instead of being happy, healthy, GNC lesbian women.

I spent all week a couple of weeks ago with a group of young women including two transmen. I observed pronouns and names and was sensitive. I also had a speaker in. Very alpha, but lovely, male speaker. He called the group 'ladies'. Because most men don't notice, care or change their behaviour at all.

Grrrt · 22/10/2018 01:58

I'm very worried they are young lesbian women who have internalized misogyny and homophobia. I really hope not. Because they are all lovely. And I would hate them to be unhappy, have painful surgery, take drugs that could make them infertile and stay in denial, instead of being happy, healthy, GNC lesbian women.
But equally there’s nothing to say that some of the butch lesbians you knew twenty years ago weren’t deeply unhappy with their gender identity and might have felt happier as transmen, had there been more awareness of transmen at the time.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/10/2018 02:07

I suppose time will tell. I sort of hope you're right because the alternative is very frightening.

Scrumplestiltskin · 22/10/2018 04:16

You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard

This doesn't move me in the slightest, OP. I know many "feminist" organisations who also support expensive makeup and grooming as "empowering", BDSM, pornography, and prostitution - trans issues are just yet another thing that caters to men's penises, which mainstream feminist organisations support over female liberation.
It turns out feminism is a lot more acceptable to people when it acts "cool" and caters to men's feelings and sexual desires first and foremost.

Scrumplestiltskin · 22/10/2018 04:19

You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one.

History is written by the victors, just FYI. So "the right side" is not necessarily the morally or ethically correct one.

ohello · 22/10/2018 05:18

Janice Turner had an article published the other day in The Times. Lady did her research, connected all the dots. The suicide rate for transgendered individuals is 1%

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/suicides-should-never-be-a-political-weapon-w0jlhn5v0

Suicide is a dark trope in the trans movement. Parents who hesitate over medical intervention are told by some activists: “Better a living daughter than a dead son.” The ITV drama Butterfly, an infomercial for the trans support group Mermaids, is based upon the story of its CEO Susie Green, who took her child to Thailand for genital surgery at 16 (which was illegal in Britain and is now illegal in Thailand) and features a graphic suicide attempt. Mermaids cites high suicide rates in trans youth to push for faster, younger access to hormones and surgery. Ms Green told MPs that Gids (the NHS’s youth gender identity development service) has a suicide attempt rate of 48 per cent. This was based upon a self-selecting sample of 27 trans people aged under 26 analysed by the LGBT charity Pace.

The sane, compassionate response is more research. Let’s pull out the serious case reviews of every teen suicide to examine all possible causes, including newspaper reporting. Surely Mermaids would welcome proper, independent, methodologically-sound scientific inquiry. In the meantime, the most reliable source is Gids which says of 5,000 young patients referred between 2016 and August this year, there were three suicides and four attempts. Each death is the deepest tragedy, yet this makes a suicide rate of less than 1 per cent. Moreover, Gids director Dr Polly Carmichael has warned that suicidal discourse is “quite unhelpful”, creating a narrative around gender-diverse children “imbued with negativity and lack of resilience.”

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 05:54

This doesn't move me in the slightest, OP. I know many "feminist" organisations who also support expensive makeup and grooming as "empowering", BDSM, pornography, and prostitution - trans issues are just yet another thing that caters to men's penises, which mainstream feminist organisations support over female liberation.

It turns out feminism is a lot more acceptable to people when it acts "cool" and caters to men's feelings and sexual desires first and foremost.

YY. Heaven forbid anyone should centre women and their boring old rights.

ohello · 22/10/2018 05:59

people who have had transition surgery are 19 times more likely than average to die by suicide. journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

VintageFur · 22/10/2018 07:30

I'd suggest that ANY type of MH issues has a higher rate of suicide than those from the general population. For example my own MH diagnosis has a 400x as high suicide rate as the general population...

Fwiw AS a Scot, I spoke to mp last may on the subject of self-ID and he had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. So don't tell me all of Scotland's institutions are on board - they either haven't got a clue or are fearful of cuts.

ParentsOfSummer · 22/10/2018 07:38

Transgender folk have all the human rights the rest of us... We are all human, they apply equally. Which human right in particular are we taking about? I think human rights are being retranslated beyond the original meaning when you say this.

but that trans women are often bemused at best when they are called in for a cervical smear, frustrated at a health system that doesn’t quite understand trans identities yet.

Okay, it might have been fake news, might have been an admin error or could have been someone called to an "appointment"without knowing what it was. But here is the issue - transwomen either are women or they are not... Mentally, socially psychologically a female fine, but medically you either are or you aren't. You can't claim to be an actual woman and be medically treated as a man... That would be invalidating the narrative - transwomen are women, even though they are not women at appointments, but they are in the changing rooms, or when it's an advantage. Same with sports... If you have testosterone, enlarged heart and lung capacity, different pelvic structure and increased height you can't claim that it's winning to play against born females with none of those advantages. You certainly can't claim that it breaches your human rights to take testosterone blockers if you insist are a woman - you made a choice to not have physical male privilege, either live as a woman without testosterone or stay out of women's sports. Once all these can be changed by surgery no one is likely to have an issue - but that's a problem for the trans community. What is being asked is that society pretends that it sees the Emperors new clothes when he's stark naked, and accepts that identifying like a tree makes you an actual tree with wildlife protection rules applied.

Transgender folk are something different, something new, and that's absolutely fine. Different is good.

As for the whole suicide thing - the confirmed facts are something like 1.7% and the propaganda is saying 48-98% - often quoting lazy questionnaires with biased samples probably with leading questions to a group that has been bombarded with the message that being suicidal makes you a real trans. It's used over and over as emotional blackmail and really its either just very childish or being trans qualifies as a serious mental health condition... Which is it? You can say its the hell trans people have to live with, but very few people are happy with who they are - we hate our voices, our noses, our hair, our weight, our income- we are all born wishing we were something else and we all have to come to terms with accepting ourselves - if someone can't, the problem is with self acceptance.

On a side note, maybe it would help the trans movement to not go on about mermaids, butterflies, glitter families and unicorns... Makes it hard to treat the issue as rational and intelligent. Also, insisting born women are consulted when crazy ideas like womxn come up might give the movement some credibility, as would not having posters defining the word woman taken down, stopping feminist debates and spurting out the word transphobic every time someone asks a difficult question.

I've seen very little hating from the mumsnet community - everyone accepts transgender people as transgender people, but not the issues that are putting women down and putting them at risk and unraveling the equality women have fought tooth and nail for over millennia.

Rights for everyone - but not at the degradation of others.

You state we are in the wrong without much explanation... Being unfashionable isn't the same as being wrong. If history shows us anything it is that popularity and truth have no correlation.

Transwomen and transmen are fine, no individuals are criticised for being who they want to be- the results of trans activism is at times oppressive and recklessly dangerous to women and children (I'm talking puberty blockers). Mumsnetters are only against that.

TerfedOff · 22/10/2018 07:43

I think my issue is that even with the current very onerous system people like Karen white slip through the system. What on earth would happen if self ID were to be introduced? It would be a complete disaster for women.

I no longer feel that anyone is able to change their biological sex because it is not possible.

Even the tiny amount of transsexuals who have surgery down below have not actually changed their biological sex they have just castrated themselves. They are male and always will be male.

I think we should stop pretending personally. I think it is a ridiculous ideology that forces everybody to lie in order to go along with someone's delusion.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 08:26

You certainly can't claim that it breaches your human rights to take testosterone blockers if you insist are a woman

The whole reason that these demands are ever more jawdroppingly outrageous is that TRAs keep forcing compliance and people keep giving in. But nothing is ever ever going to be enough. Because it's not about human rights. It's about control. They're also to an extent in competition with other TRAs to win the most concessions I think.

This is the main reason they hate gender critical feminists so much. Because we see them, and we dare to say NO. And we are women, and misogynistic males don't like that.

But other people are starting to see through it now too.

Excellent article by former head of EHRC Trevor Phillips in the Times today.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 08:33

If you watch TRA founder of Trans Media Watch Helen Belcher on the recent Newsnight arguing against Ruth Serwotka, Belcher gets the last word by saying something like "well you wouldn't say a 6 foot three person could compete and they have a physical advantage". Watch Belcher's expression. Classic Duping Delight.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 08:33

*couldn't compete

FekkoTheLawyer · 22/10/2018 08:34

I worry that more and more rights will be given because of the general publics apathy - who is highly motivated and have the time to fill out the form (students an activists).

Who boast that they have a lot of techies in their ranks? I don't trust online consultations - way too open to fraud

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 08:36

Who boast that they have a lot of techies in their ranks? I don't trust online consultations - way too open to fraud

I said in my submission that online consultations alone aren't inclusive enough and there were groups of people being indirectly discriminated against by this approach.

SonEtLumiere · 22/10/2018 09:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FekkoTheLawyer · 22/10/2018 09:02

I mayve mentioned that too!
When do the results get announced?