AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

Also, you aren't silenced. You're posting on here. Do you have a different view on what silencing means?

And mocked, well I haven't seen the thread to which you refer, but I can kind of understand how that would happen if you repeat things like the suicide stats (and I am really sorry for your own circumstances and understand completely why that is a raw nerve) when they have been repeatedly debunked. If you feel so passionate about a subject, then it would follow that you would read around it quite a bit, I would have thought. And not want to do harm to those you are wanting to support. But self id and repeating dodgy stats actively work against those you are wanting to help. So, when you repeat well worn tropes that indicate that you haven't really looked into the issue but are just wanting to be kind to your mates whilst being quite aggressive to other posters, then mocking is one response that you should probably expect.

Those you are railing against aren't monsters. Just like you, they don't want harm to come to those they are close too (and are not, actually).

The reality is that these organisations support self-ID for one very simple reason: they will get their funding cut if they don’t.

They wouldn't get as far as that. Because any worker expressing a remotely GC thought would be facing a disciplinary action.

Why does this always have to come up. I don’t think anyone would actively chose to have to go through such a life changing event.
I think self id is a bad idea, but the men and women who don’t feel that they are in the right gender go through hell,
There are bad apples in every sector of society.

You're being incredibly unreasonable. Women have always been oppressed but never before has anyone tried to erase our existence. It is extraordinarily offensive to diminish our biological reality to a feeling in a man's mind. It makes us un-people. It's a good job no one believes the dogma anyway, even you.

OP as a Scottish wummin (adult human female) bog awf and get it roon ye- you speak not for me, my friends or family. I do not know one person who supports self id.

You're being incredibly unreasonable. Women have always been oppressed but never before has anyone tried to erase our existence. It is extraordinarily offensive to diminish our biological reality to a feeling in a man's mind. It makes us un-people. It's a good job no one believes the dogma anyway, even you.
Do you feel trans people are also trying to erase male identity and reduce manhood to a feeling in a transman’s mind?

Self ID all you want, but do not invade my female birth gender space please.

Or win in any competition where females are competing. Or.... well, just show us your genitals if you need to do these things. OK?

I am in Scotland. This is a helpful explanation of what went on in our " consultation". Indeed, a very respected ( male) journalist, Iain MacWhirter has written only this week that he was not even aware the consultation had taken place.
scottish-women.com/2018/09/13/hoodwinked-by-the-government/

Some people believe in God. Some people are alive today because they found God, and their faith has stopped them from killing themselves. Doesn't mean God exists, and it certainly doesn't mean I should have to believe he exists. I respect the right of others to believe in God, but I won't pretend he exists just to keep them happy.

If trans women want to believe they are women, that's their right. But there's no scientific evidence to back up that belief, so I'm not going to subscribe to it.

What do I believe?

I believe that the big enemy here is male violence, because that's why women are worried about self ID. But the trans movement isn't really talking about that, is it? That's because it's a lot easier to tell women off for being transphobic than it is to stop men being violent. If male-bodied trans women's access to women's spaces is dependent on preventing male violence, it won't happen will it? So the issue is ignored.

I also believe that the important concept of sex segregation has been undermined because of the conflation of gender and biological sex. I see Trump is now using that very same conflation as a way of removing trans rights. That is why it's dangerous to claim that gender (as defined by the trans movement) is equivalent to biological sex. The two are NOT the same thing. Gender that arises out of biological sex is different from gender as a feeling of what you are.

I also believe that we don't know what being transgender actually means. We have no scientific understanding of the mechanism behind gender dysphoria. We don't know if it counts as a disorder or not. We don't know if everyone who has those feelings is having them for the same reason. Psychiatry is not a mature science, and the field often makes sweeping decisions that turn out to be wrong. Autism, for example, was until very recently considered to be an extreme version of the male brain (and that's considering there isn't even good evidence to say there's such a thing as the male brain).

I also believe that it's unfair to let trans women compete in competitions for biological women, and for trans women to be allowed to take advantage of shortlists reserved for biological women. I support them having their own competitions and their own shortlists, but sporting events exist because women have female biology, and women-only shortlists exist to counteract misogyny and not transhpobia.

I also believe that the reason the problematic aspects of Self ID and "transwomen are women" are being overlooked is because society is still Patriarchal. The concerns of women are being dismissed in the same way that the concerns of men are dismissed when we debate men-only golf clubs. That is not right. A women's refuge is not a golf club. The reason some women want penis-free changing rooms is not the same reason some men want women-free golf courses. It's an example of unconscious misogyny when the concerns of women who have suffered rape or abuse at the hands of men are downplayed in this way.

So, there you go OP. Is it transphobic to point out why the female biology of women is so important to the definition of "woman", considering we live in a misogynistic society where the protections we give women are necessary because they have a female biology?

'in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls'

I see this again and again, trans people demanding their human rights. Which human rights are they being denied?

Karen is a MAN. A raping, child-abusing MAN.

Not according to Stonewall, and that is the issue. Stonewall would eliminate the right in law to make any judgements based on biological sex.

Many transgender people oppose stonewall's approach and oppose self ID. The nomenclature of gender non-conformity is a huge area of debate in the trans community.

How many times does it need to be said:

• Standing up for women's rights is not transphobic.
• Pointing out the importance of scientific language (where it's relevant) is not being mean to people or denying their right to live as they wish.
• Discussing practical applications of huge legislative change should not be shut down.

Literally no one I know in RL thinks men can magically become women. Self id will not happen, certainly not in the way its being asked for.

Trans people already have rights.

What else do they want?!

Oh ffs please stop talking about Ireland when you haven't got a clue.I'm hearing nonsense from people on both sides here.

For those calling it a "conservative society" where it's hard to come out as "gay or trans", we legalised same sex marriage in 2015 by referendum and our prime minister is openly gay.

For those trumpeting how wonderful we are about the trans issue, the legislation was sneaked through with zero consultation with women or impact assessment, it was classic TRA trojan horse tactics by a handful of well-placed lobbyists. People are slowly waking up but there is the same mission creep in dismantling child protection and removing the sex based limitations of the 2015 Act so that we can go the full Karen White if TRAs get their way.

It is not fucking all right.

**Of course transwomen should have human rights. They just don't get to make a land-grab for women's rights, because women's rights are to do with either our biology or to do with our historical oppression and the unequal place that leaves us in now, due to people having abused our biology in the past.

why Are women expected to make space for men? Why aren't men made to be more accepting of other men.

Or rather why do biological females have to make space for transwomen when biological men need to be more accepting of transwomen.

You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one.

Ego. Ego. Ego.

Decide if you want to be bigger than your gender identity. If you want to be -human- first.

Because your gender identity is one thing, and your care and compassion for other humans is another. Trans issues have taken so very much more of the really important issues than matters.

Long term the environment, the measured use of DNA engineering and the issues of hidden biochem. weopons and most of all creating societies that do not have too much of a rich/poor divide (for health and happiness reasons) matter more.

Your own individual identity matters but not at the expense of bigger issues and not when transgender issues can be dangerous, as you know very well they can.

So far a great deal of transpeople scream and shout as if their wishes are all that matters. They do not consider the concerns and experiences and consequent wishes of the group of people they say they wish to join. That is ultimate selfishness or else a mixed ulterior motive.

If you really wish to be taken seriously as a person, if you wish to cooperate as opposed to demand, then speak straight in the culture you live in rather than very obvious pointed demands. Your statement "I am just one person"is disingenuous. If you have honesty left, you know that.

OP, in your leaving you now post, you mentioned with detail your financial problems.

Do you think that perhaps you are projecting, worrying about other people's plight, people you are told are an oppressed minority because you are stressed and it is appealing for you to emotionally attach to a problem outside of your own?

I'm a regular here, a Trans Widow. My STBXH is very far from oppressed. He's wealthy, powerful, white, privileged, privately educated. He drives a very fancy car. He employs a lot of people.

He's also an abusive sexually motivated full time crossdresser, who is using the language of oppression to access glory and accolades for ditching his family for a more interesting sex life.

Trust me, he doesn't give a fuck about you and your support for him, other than to use you.

Hope you feel better in the morning.

It is not rocket science, which is good, because I am not a rocket scientist. If the person in question happens to have a Y chromosome, then science tells us that this is a male. Occasionally, (rarely) some men with XY have an androgen insensitivty issue, and appear biologically female. This is very, very rare. This whole, ' I have always felt like a women' shit is bollocks. If you are a man, who thinks he feels like a women, you are delusional. You are not a fucking women. If the same man said, he didn't feel like a human, but he was born in the wrong body, he is actually a dolphin, he would get psychiatric help. Women are born, not made.

I have to say that I have found the reasoned and measured arguments presented by the ‘Mumsnet Massive’ a great deal more persuasive than those on the other side.

I haven't. Admittedly, I start from the stance that I don't agree with self-identification, so don't need to be persuaded in that respect. But what I have never been persuaded of is all this terror of the dreaded penis from members of a board that, by definition, is primarily for women who clearly don't find penises as dreadful as is made out. I cannot for the life of me see how it will harm me locking myself into a cubicle in a women's toilet when there might be a trans woman in the next cubicle. In fact, I recognise that there is every possibility that that has happened to me more than once without my being in any way aware of it or harmed by it.

I'm also not persuaded by the perception that women are never violent and that, if only we can keep the dreaded penises out, we will be safe in women's facilities. It is certainly not unknown for women to attack other women and to use such facilities for the purpose. The fact is that if a man wants to attack a woman in a women's toilet, the existence of a label on the door saying "Ladies" is, very obviously, not going to stop him; nor would self-identification make it any easier for him to do so given that Ladies' toilets aren't policed.

One of the main problems with these threads is that participants pounce on the existence of people like Karen White to tar all trans people with the same brush, whereas in my experience trans women in particular are generally gentle souls who simply want to get on with their own lives and are totally harmless. The way so many responses to OP's original post focus on KW to the exclusion of all else is entirely typical, and very revealing.

For all that the existence of transphobia on MN is hotly denied, we all know that it does happen - I've certainly seen threads where post-operative transwomen are the subject of pretty unpleasant attacks. And no, I can't link to them because, unsurprisingly, those threads get deleted (Just waiting for the first idiot to quote that bit and say "How convenient". Because yes, it is very convenient for the transphobics round here.)

The reality is that every trans thread on MN ends up going round the same treadmill again and again and again, with all dissenting voices crowded out. And when the dissenters give up because it just gets bloody tedious making the same valid points over and over again only to be ignored and shouted down, the trans-obsessives start whinging on about how people won't stay to play with them. And, I'm afraid, the response to this post is going to be only too tediously predictable.

Women's spaces won't even be safe spaces for Trams women if any old Tom, Dick or Harry is allowed to declare himself Tomasina, Dilly or Harriet without any substantiation, then use his lady penis as he sees fit.

And, if locking yourself in a cubicle is fine, then women with penises can do just that, in the penis loos and changing rooms.

If you're replying to my post, @PickAChew, do at least attempt to read the bit where I stated my position on self-identification.

I would certainly assume that any transwoman using women's toilets would lock themselves into their cubicles. Why wouldn't they?

That's incredibly disingenuous Volant.

Up to now, you may well have had transwomen in the next cubicle from you and it doesn't bother you.

When you may have a sexual predator in the next cubicle, with a beard and a penis, that may bother you somewhat more.

You know damn well that this issue isn't generally about transwomen in the next cubicle, it's about any man anywhere being able to go in, because no one will know if he's a proud inspirational transwoman or a common or garden predator and they'll feel inhibited from challenging him or complaining about his presence, because they fear being accused of harassment of a protected minority if it turns out that he's a harmless proud transwomen.

Unfortunately if they discover that he's not a harmless transwoman, by the time they discover it, it's too late.

That is the concern. And you know it because if you've followed these threads, you'll have read that over and over again.