AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

Sorry, the ones on the wrong side os history are the ones trying to break down womens rights. And safeguarding for kids. The right side of history will never be the one that attempts to remove safeguarding for children, or medicalizes them unnecessarily.

And this is not a fringe view either. Something like 10% of people agree with self-ID. Yours is the fringe view.

But to allow self ID, with no questions asked allows men like that to say "but I'm a woman" and then we can't stop them going into female spaces. And if they attack a lone woman... What... That's ok because he told us he was a woman and how would we know any differently?

If you allow self ID then you leave it open to easy abuse. There are no hoops to jump through so there is literally zero protection agasint predators like that. The real transgender woman aren't an issue, but to stop the predators and protect women then the only solution is to say "use the space which matches your current physical sex not your gender".

And yes, if you agree with self-ID, that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, Karen White absolutely is a woman. Karen and his rapey fucking dick. You cannot say you agree with selfID, but then say Karen is a bloke.

OP, how are the NHS meant to know if women they are sending a cervical smear invitation to are trans or not? At the moment there's just a male and female box to tick on NHS forms. My understanding was that this was something the trans community were specifically rallying against i.e. identifying as a 'trans woman' rather than just a woman?

And stop with the trans-related nonsense suicide stats. It's dangerous to use those statistics in this context and totally against Samaritans guidelines.

And what about the transgender woman demanding smear tests? They have identified as female with their GP so they receive the notice to attend a smear test... And they attend and expect to have it. They don't have a cervix. The doctor just has to pretend to do it. Did I miss something, because I'm pretty sure the NHS should not be eating resources like that.

@Iaimtomisbehave1 has this actually happened?

I guess i'm one of the posters that make these threads/this place into the place you describe. I do know that threads can go in the wrong direction for me.

But i'm really thrown by your description of 'what constitutes a woman' as a complex challenging question. This is always for me what it comes down to. Being a woman is not a club or an aspiration or a prize or a choice or a curse. It just is, a neutral fact. Humans just are sexually dimorphic, and there are SOME things that result from that. Phrases for example like pregnant woman - that is just a fact. If you are pregnant, you are female. When i see people trying to pretend that is not the case, i just feel mystified. I'm quite politically correct myself. I made a possibly counterproductive fuss at my workplace when i overheard a colleague asking a woman in a hijab for her daugte's Christian name. But to refer to a 'pregnant person' just seems daft.

I won't ask on this thread because i'm not into aggressive questioning (and i know it would come out as aggressive) but i simply don't understand how feminism is enriched by being a trans ally on the way you seem to mean - accepting people born men as women? To me that seems to eliminate feminism, a process that many people i have come across would be terrifically comfortable with, but not to me in a feminist way.

As a vulnerable woman who has to has regular spells in hospital, I resent the fact that people are happy to put people like Karen White on a locked women only ward, and wait for one of us to be raped before we can complain about it.

Your voice isn't silenced. You are just not responding to questions.

This is where the trans ideology rabbit hole leads..

Here

Donkey, you're just shouting. Who exactly do you think are these well informed people? Cos if you read stuff from all the GC sites they give chapter and verse references, scientific papers, links to new stories. The trans advocate side just shout TWAW get over it and #nodebate. That doesn't sound well informed to me. It sounds like people trying to cover up a lack of information with sloganism.

How do these well informed people get round the complete illogic of defining woman as anyone who feels like they're a woman, this rendering the term completely meaningless?

Then they talk about compassion. I feel compassion for some transwomen, none at all for others. (Karen White, Pips Bunce, anyone using the term terf and telling women to diaf or suck my lady dick - that's not a GC term btw, that's what a number of so called transwomen have said to women). You can't reinvent logic and reality based on compassion though. Being born male is a reality, you may not like it but you have to live with it and make the best of it. It shouldn't be nearly as confining as gender stereotypes in today's society try to make it. That's what we can and should reinvent, the stereotype business itself.

GC feminists would be the first to cheer men on if they want to be a man in a dress and heels and makeup. (Well maybe not all of them, I personally don't see why anyone would want to wear shoes that do that to your feet!) It's insulting to say that has anything to do with being a woman though, whether that they're a woman because "you can't tell the difference can you" or that the fact they want to present themselves like that is somehow a symptom of being a woman (what so I'm a defective woman then?).

Please read to see how real transwomen are treating lesbians..terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

Please read and tell me what happens if a man like this succeeds and rapes a little girl, how will you tell her that you said it was ok to let men in dresses come into the toilets?.. www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/702003/fife-teen-on-sex-offenders-register-after-supermarket-child-attacks/

There are even transsexuals on twitter who don't agree with the proposals.

OP - the problem most of us have is that it isn't biologically possible to change sex, just as you cannot choose to change your race, age or species.
Lots of mothers on this board are scared that our daughters/sons will be exposed to propaganda that will encourage our children to to take hormonal drugs at a time when they are going through the normal change and uncertainty that comes with being a teenager. Drugs that will potentially leave them unable to have children if they choose to later on in life.

OP you shouldn't have to feel that you should conform to gender roles or else under go really barbaric surgery to feel happy and I'm really sorry you feel that way, but I really feel that the trans movement is very dangerous for my children.

OK, it's late at night; I opened a thread but also responded to arguments that disagreed with me. Can i reserve the right to go to bed now (with my daughters and sons, because all my kids sleep in the same room together, reason being we are poor and have 2 bedrooms between all of us ....not that it matters but hopefully it will give you the idea that we are an ordinary family and not some trans-rights group nefarious mainlining as mumsnet posters) and come back to this in the morning, without (hopefully) it being implied I'm chickening out? Goodnight for now; I'll see you tomorrow.

If you allow self ID then you leave
it open to easy abuse

Yes. And why should we not be worried about this OP? Why is this not in your view a valid concern?

Mumsnet has really changed

So trans women who are evil aren't women, but trans women who aren't evil are women?

There's some logic.

Ok OP - Please explain how I can teach my daughters to tell the difference.

So trans women who are evil aren't women, but trans women who aren't evil are women?

There's some logic.

Ok OP - Please explain how I can teach my daughters to tell the difference.

Under self-ID, Karen White is a woman.
You cannot deny she is a woman, because she said so, and you want to law changed to mean that she can do that.
That is what you want.
Predatory men with penises to have access to female spaces where they will sexually assault them.
That is what you are asking for.

Genuine trans-women (and men) already have protection under the current GRA to live life in their chosen body without prejudice.

The only thing your change in law will change, is to allow women like Karen White to rape and abuse.

Trans issues do not need all this publicity.

But someone somewhere sure as heck is making sure it is. Most people don't care until an obvious male invades their changing rooms or toilets, or is awarded a cup for being the best cyclist out there in a female only sport.

Republic of Ireland for example has had self ID for years now. I do not hear any angst from there. Can anyone explain this discrepancy? Population density can account for some of it, but surely it would be proportionate?

Donkey could you please answer my question before you go to bed?

Trans people have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the EA2010. They absolutely should be able to live and present however they wish without fear of discrimination or hatred.

Which rights do you think they are currently denied?

What always puzzles me is where transmen fit into the great changing room debate.

If facilities are separated based on biological sex, what happens with the transmen, who pass as men? Do they have to flash their crotch to show that they should be in the female space? Will they just be hounded out? Or should they use the men’s facilities? I guess it could be a vaginas-only facility and a ‘mixed but mostly penises’ facility?