To ask what people are afraid of with a People's Vote?

[Bearbehind]

Estimates reckon there were nearly a million people at the Peoples Vote march yesterday so support for it is high.

Why is it such a threat to others though?

If you're so convinced Leaving is the right thing to do for the country, why wouldn't you want that to be endorsed now people have a clearer idea of what is to come?

Or is it that you're worried Leave would now lose as it's been made clear there are no upsides?

In which case why do you want to go ahead with it anyway?

As I understand it if we leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR this then opens up access to the U.N. human rights courts for UK citizens. We are currently excluded from using U.N. courts because we are deemed to have good local access to justice. U.N. courts are more expensive and take longer.
@10degreestostarboard

So if Russia aren’t carrying out state sanctioned assassination on our soil they are trying to scupper us on the world stage?*

What’s new there? What’s your point?

What's new, is that they are being extremely successful. Top tip, if Putin wants you to vote for something, DON'T VOTE FOR IT!

Ah yes momentum - corbyns brown shirts

You would think that Theresa May might be a bit concerned if people who were lifelong Tory supporters went over to that side. I wonder how she defines making Brexit a success? Not smashing the Tory party is probable her only real test, but losing people to the other extreme isn't the best way to keep her party intact.

No reply then 10? I need to do better but you can't manage to explain the points you made.

I think I've worked out what you mean by 'freedom' you actually mean 'British'. So you are using 'freedom' the way it was used in pre WW1 propaganda. You use 'freedom' the way it was used during Empire.

The U.K. invaded countries and then 'freed' them.

That's not freedom that's nationalism. In that case in terms of 'millions of our forebears' dying I wholeheartedly agree. Millions of people from the U.K. and around the world have died because of nationalism.

In many ways the EU was formed as a rebuff to this idea of 'nationalistic freedom'. The freedom to die in a trench.

Kippers don't want a People's Vote because they know people can see through the lies.

Millions fell for the £350m for NHS rubbish (reneged the very day of the election result) and Boris's speeches about keeping the benefits of membership whilst 'taking back control'. The reality is potentially no deal or a hard brexit that will destroy our economy and keep few, if any, of the benefits.

I fell for it. I voted leave. Now we actually know the situation and soon will know of any deal, we should have a final say.

Momentum are twats. Looking to exploit the opportunity of mayhem to provide "The Answer". ERG just want to find ways to make money off misfortune.
Please don't equate momentum with Remain.

Re the "millions that died" opposing what the EU stands for and it being a MN insult for those that fought for "freedom"

....those would be the ones that voted 67% in favour of staying in the European Community (and yes, it was clear that it was more than just a trade organisation, even them). You know, the ones that had actually fought in and had experienced WW2

You'd have to over 90 now even to have fought at the end of WW2 as an 18 year old And I believe that those that were still alive in 2016 did vote a majority in favour of Remain.

BTW: even as an 11 year old, I knew that membership of the European Community was more than just economics. I "celebrated" the fact that we were joining by starting to cross my 7s and my Zs as part of feeling European. (never quite managed to convert myself to the European "I"/one )

And yes, I'm proud to be a European. I also used to be proud to be British - and would've voted against Scottish "Home Rule" (couldn't vote as I was too young - but my vote still counted as a "No" which I was happy about at the time as I was on the electoral register ). No longer. I am a proud Scot and European

I was giving the example of the ex-Tory joining momentum, because these are the people that Theresa May should be working at to keep on her side, if she really does want to 'make a success of Brexit'.
What would be a success? Well these wonderful trade deals with the rest of the world, which should be all ready to be up and running, on 30th March, would be a start. How about that long list of countries just itching to invest and build factories here - I asked for a list, and am still waiting.

@Elasticity

Please write to your MP. This is also a letter writing campaign for 9th November demanding a People's Vote. Letters (real physical letter in an envelope) sent the the PM at 10 Downing Street to arrive on the 9th. Please share and ask everybody (who agrees) in your household to write as well. No need to stop at one letter either!

Kenndodd

Surely by people’s vote you mean ‘2016 vote re-run’

As they say, careful what you wish for...

Now we actually know the situation and soon will know of any deal, we should have a final say

Sums up perfectly why we need a second vote or revoke Art 50.

In any walk of life involving a momentous decision, we have a chance to re assess, there is no argument why brexit should be any different.

Personally, i'd like to see Art 50 revoked, they'll be no civil unrest, just look at the numbers Farage is getting on his Brexit Tour of Britain, derisory! despite the mess May is making of the negotiations, if they were really concerned, they'd be in London with a million protesters!

A majority of Leave voters know full well leaving is a mistake and secretly wish it would all quietly go away, they didn't vote on the vagaries of ECJ/SM/CU/EEA/EFTA or Sovereignty, they voted to kick the establishment.
Evidence for this is that at the height of UKIP popularity, they got less than 4m votes in 2015, which is just about the number of hardcore anti EU voters in this country. (pro eu parties got 23m)

Jasjas

The underlying sentiments driving ukips previous success haven’t gone away.

And you might be right - revoking article 50 might now be technically sensible. But if that is true it’s only because Brexit was only ever set up to fail.

Welching on Brexit will offer you a phyriic victory in the long run

10 you're back! Excellent.

Any update on those replies you were working hard on?

You know ECHR, "millions of our forebears", freedom = nationalism?

Or did you just want to type a pithy comment and leave?

Moose - I don’t engage with Brussels sock puppets.

Oh "Brussels sock puppet" well done!

How about you engage with someone who knows substantially more about British history than you do?

You claim to be concerned about Britain and our 'forebears' but won't engage with a discussion about pertinent issues.

You did make an historical reference to 'brown shirts' but won't talk about British history- such a shame. Particularly, in relation to the ECHR this really is one of the things that Britain's can be really proud of. A real, positive to the world - we led the way -and you want to leave it.

Surely you should be proud of our British heritage?

@10degreestostarboard

As they say, careful what you wish for...

Indeed, leave may well win but at least then people would be clear about what was coming and the damage to the economy and our international standing. I think arguments about the economy are a waste of time tbh, most Leavers I know don't care about the economy, most are retired anyway. They care about only one thing, immigration. Brexit, even (especially) the most disastrous cliff edge Brexit will bring that down so they will get what they wanted. Other, more measured leavers I think need a get out clause to save face. Saying the voted for Norway style (as some said was a good option) not hard Brexit might provide that.

@10degrees

Living in a very pro leave area, i'm aware of UKIP and the sentiments that drive them, i can understand some of these but UKIP never got their own MPs elected and there is not the electoral evidence out there that these sentiments are widely held.

But my point is a simple IN/OUT vote needs clarification on the final arrangements especially as you appear to agree (?) that the brexit we'll be getting is a costly mess that few voted for.

If art 50 was revoked, we can always leave the EU at a future date, should predictions of EU doom become a apparent, if we leave now and economic damage is great (as it appears it will be) that will be impossible to put right.

I've spent the last couple of days reading through this thread and others similar to it, and have made the following observations:

1. The threads are dominated by europhiles.

2. The same usernames are posting messages from first thing in the morning to last thing at night. The owners of these usernames appear not to work or have lives that take them away from Mumsnet for any significant length of time.

3. Any attempt at discourse is immediately shot down by the above users, who work very effectively as a group to derail conversations.

I have to conclude that a group with an agenda is using Mumsnet to try to influence public opinion.

Such tactics are ill advised - people do not take kindly to being told how to think, feel or vote (hence the distrust of the European Union). In fact, when being told what to do, most people will generally do the opposite. Especially if the person telling them what to do declares that they are more intelligent and better informed.

We can all read, we can all listen to dissenting opinions and we can all make up our own minds.

Sorry if @anonymousobserver doesn't like it when people post regularly. I work. I have breaks. I am horrified that my fellowBrits have been duped and stuck to proven lies rather than admit they were duped.
I am not especially fond of the EU but I am especially fond of not screwing up my country's economy on a whim.
I don't feel especially blessed by you bestowing your great thoughts on us. But feel free to do so.

I broke my hip in a bicycle accident... i'm bored! only so much Pysio i can do :(
i am not in a group of any type what-so-ever nor do i know any other poster, either in RL or on here and have received no private messages!

But your're correct, people don't want to be told what to do, we don't like experts, whether its on climate change, drfood consumption, inking or lack of exercise... we all know best.

Its not a great human trait.

+drinking

Get well soon@jasjas1973 . That's a bummer.

@anonymousobserver interesting points.

I'm bored, I'm not well, so I have time to post - is that ok with you?

While reading the thread have you noticed how many times remainers have asked pro Brexit supporters for 3 good reasons, or asked for replies and arguments? Please respond to points I have made - that's how discussions work.

Unfortunately, when pro Brexit supporters do come up with arguments like freedom, sovereignty and immigration they are very easily put down. Is that a put down or a counter argument.

When someone says something that is incorrect and you can demonstrate that does that mean you are being rude to them? Leavers say they are treated as if they are stupid but if they put forward arguments that are stupid whose fault is that?

I am trying very hard to get 10 to expand on some points he has made. He is refusing to do so - I want the discourse but like most leavers he refuses to engage.

I'm retired but in between looking after a grandchild and doing voluntary work which is home based, I have time to post. Why not? I don't know any of the other posters here. But thanks for your wonderful thoughts anonymous - you are perfectly entitled to an opinion.

Although "you lost, get over it" doesn't to my mind count as discourse, or telling the sick to bog off to Brussels, when they are scared stiff about not getting their medication.

Hope your healing well.
I am only posting how I feel about things...
I am Mrs Joe Bloggs.
To me the EU and the way it is percived to be acting, regardless of right or wrong is that they are not willing to let us leave.
If you ask people who voted to leave. I think you will find the view held here is wrong... It is a screaming mass of... We are British get me out of here.
Parliament is split on what to do. Not just the PM dictating, but people we voted into office can't agree, so your saying they are thick and ill-informed.