To ask what people are afraid of with a People's Vote?

[Bearbehind]

Estimates reckon there were nearly a million people at the Peoples Vote march yesterday so support for it is high.

Why is it such a threat to others though?

If you're so convinced Leaving is the right thing to do for the country, why wouldn't you want that to be endorsed now people have a clearer idea of what is to come?

Or is it that you're worried Leave would now lose as it's been made clear there are no upsides?

In which case why do you want to go ahead with it anyway?

To answer the question directly, if there were to be a second people's vote then I'd be afraid of civil unrest, the feeling that our democracy had been categorically undermined and the consequences this could have. I'd be afraid that it would create further division and tensions among those who want in and those who want out. I also wonder what would happen if "leave" were to win again.

I do wish we were remaining though and that we'd never had the referendum in the first place.

So if Russia aren’t carrying out state sanctioned assassination on our soil they are trying to scupper us on the world stage?

What’s new there? What’s your point?

Talktotrees

... and the wto has no need to exempt members from similar because they don’t want to creep towards independent statehood as a stated end game

Apples and pears me old fruit, but nice try.

I would have thought the glib "We''ll just fall back on WTO terms" is exposed as being fiction. As people like Redwood and Rees-Mogg know full well, or otherwise would not have been in such a hurry to make sure their money is outside the UK.

Motherof

Read the thread. No one is disputing that the government have made a Horlicks of Brexit. What’s your point? We are in violent agreement here, if on little else

So basically you are happy to cede some sovereignty to some organisations but not others?

Your issue is 'every closer union' because you feel it threatens being British - a nationalistic argument?

Moose

See above - you are confusing rules with sovereignty with your rubbish wto comparison

Try harder

crimson72

Unfortunately there's probably going to be civil unrest whatever happens, if Brexit goes ahead then people in poor areas will face huge job cuts and benefit cuts and loss of employment rights etc - leading to unrest. If it doesn't go ahead there would probably be unrest about that.

Basically people have been lied to and at some point those chickens will come home to roost, whether or not Brexit proceeds (I hope to high heaven it doesn't, it will be this country's enduring humiliation and give a green light to right wing extremists to rip up what's left of civil society).

Better to have unrest about something that delivers a better result for the country, I think.

10, the UK was exempted from ‘ever closer union’ in Feb 2016.

In fact, here’s the link:

... the European Council noted that the concept of ever closer union allows for different paths of integration for different countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who do not want to deepen any further.

www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/143478.pdf#page=12

10 I will indeed try harder and I hope you do the same.

I am still awaiting your words of wisdom explaining your "millions of our forebears" comment - you never did say who they were, where they fought or why they were fighting?

Also, in relation to people dying for a good cause you totally avoided explaining your wish to leave the ECHR.

Your desire for 'freedom' was surely enshrined in the ECHR by the British lawyers who formed it?

Or do you only want freedom for 'British' people.

Avoiding an answer does not mean you 'won' the point.

Talktotrees

I know. That doesn’t detract from what the eu is trying to work towards though. In the same way that the eec of 1975 is very different to today, the eu of 2050 will also be very different again.

But given your loyalties lie with the Europeans that probably doesn’t bother you

Oh and 10 I also asked you to explain your idea of sovereignty- you never did reply on that one either.

While I'm at it how are rules different to a constitution?

Most constitutions are made up of rules.

As always I await the reply from the leavers with baited breath.

Moose

Yes I want the best result for my fellow Britons. Because the rest of the world essentially represents competition, whatever hippy dippy one world nonsense you may advocate.

I suspect you consider yourself European before being British so I wouldn’t expect you to understand.

So the EU explicitly states that subsidiarity is key and the U.K. ( and some other states) are exempt from ever closer union but - and this is the killer argument - you just know better.

We if you'd explained earlier that the whole argument is because you just know that would have saved us all sooooo much effort.

10 still waiting for a response to those other points.

10 is continuing to do a brilliant job of putting up fallacious arguments that are easy to knock down with pesky facts and reality. Even if he doesn't want to or dogmatically refuses to believe them, he has provided opportunity after opportunity for his arguments to be debunked and for the lurkers to read the counter arguments themselves.

Brilliant.

Thanks prettybird - my russian handlers will appreciate your confidence.

Who doesn't want the best for fellow countrymen and women? I don't myself see the real prospect of massive unemployment as being the best, but it appears that others do. Nor do I see the prospect of some dying prematurely because of a shortage of medicines as the best. I gave examples of what it was like in the thirties - wasn't it funny (not) that no leaver replied to say that yes, I'd like to be the family that didn't know where the next meal was coming from?

I can't help but think of the lady who was on QT a couple of years ago, who was quite happy to vote Tory, until she realised that they included her in the list of benefit scroungers. She did it all by the rules, but it didn't work for her. As one who came from a Tory family, she's now joined Momentum.

Peregrina

Ah yes momentum - corbyns brown shirts

You are right after all - it DOES feel like the 1930s

Motherof

Be honest - you want the best for Europe. Any happy by product for Britain is just a nice to have from your perspective.