Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

Trans people (obvs not all) want to use the sex segregated spaces of the sex they identify as, as a way of validation.
That’s why it wouldn’t work.

FissionChips ok that sounds reasonable. Another question though: if a person is trans, is there no acknowledgement of the difference of their experience growing up and how that feeds into their gender identity? So for example, the experiences biological women share are things like being treated differently for being girls, onset of puberty and how breasts and periods may have affected them, glass ceiling as adults etc. Whereas a trans person would presumably experience feeling out of place as their biological sex as a child, onset of puberty is difficult as they move even further from their desired gender, coming out as adults? Is that experience not embraced as part of the trans identity and therefore separate from biological male/female experience? Or am I waaay off??

There would be benefits to having a mixed-sex sports option that was open and apparent alongside single-sex - and there are in some sports. I don't think saying 'this is the trans option' would be as helpful as making it an open option. Really, I think that would make things more complicated as you'd need at least two other options (transwomen and transmen being quite different biologically) rather than one open one that didn't have a sex requirement.

Some trans people do recognise that they are trans and therefore won’t have the same experiences as the sex they identify as.
Others will say that because their soul is that of the sex they identify with then they have had the same experience as the sex they identify with.

teach totally endorse your suggestion - it is what seems sensible and fair.. but as others have said TRAs want far far more.

Personally, I think on physical spaces we should have:

• single sex women
• mixed sex ie anyone who's happy to use it
• single sex men

when there is space. When there isn't I think it is the men's which should become mixed sex, NOT the women's for two reasons:

• women's right to privacy, dignity and safety
• the ridiculously practical one that there are always long queues for the ladies and never the mens so everyone would benefit if there was a more even distribution of footfall

AND for things like sport, all women's shortlists, etc I do think we should consider a Transgender category because this is the fairest and is recognising the challenges they have/have had in growing up

But that said, I am really longing for men to expand the bandwidth of being a man (eg acceptable to wear stilettos and lippie, or participate in "feminine" things) RATHER than invading our space. The number of genuine transpeople is tiny (the transexuals of old) - the number o opportunists (the really worrying AGPers, the frivolous, narcissistic, etc) is HUGE

What worries me is that some trans seem to want to compete with women for the sake of validating themselves - to look outrageously glamorous, get into womens' spaces and organisations for the sake of proving a point, and I have even read talk of 'our vaginas are tighter so men appreciate sex with us more'. I felt that Caitlyn Jenner did this when she was on the magazine cover in her little basque. I also feel that some of the trans activists are in this business - flaunting their 'perfect' constructed bodies yet saying no one can ask them about their surgeries.

I am particularly worried about the impact on women's sport and the proven benefits of women's sections on hospital wards.

You'd need at least two other options (transwomen and transmen being quite different biologically) rather than one open one that didn't have a sex requirement. Yes, i take your point there, it has seemingly infinite layers of complexity to try and cater for all

Others will say that because their soul is that of the sex they identify with then they have had the same experience as the sex they identify with. Surely that's just being deluded??

@loveyouradvice What is an AGPer?? My acronym game is seriously weak!

Some trans people do recognise that they are trans and therefore won’t have the same experiences as the sex they identify as.

I would like to announce that I am now identifying as a brilliantly intelligent, searingly charismatic, stunningly beautiful millionaire. I hereby demand the right to have the same experiences as the person I identify as!

Surely that's just being deluded??

I have been called a “TERF cunt” on Twitter for expressing this opinion.

AGP - Autogynophile:
Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female.

Chalk

pretty sure that’s hate speak. We’re not allowed to talk about our biology, or did you not get the memo?

To be fair it must be exasperating to want to be something so badly and then find out that those people don't accept you. Kind of like being in with the in-crowd at school.

I think that if people with dysphoria got effective MH support and everybody worked to dismantle gender stereotypes then that would go some way to sorting out this shitshow.

I think that if people with dysphoria got effective MH support and everybody worked to dismantle gender stereotypes then that would go some way to sorting out this shitshow.

People with genuine disphoria are not the ones wanting self ID, they don't need it, they already get a gender recogision certificate and help with disphoria.

Self ID is being pushed by people who are not acting in the interest of transexuals.

It's being pushed by people with fetishes, people who like to donate women and those who would like safeguarding around children removed.

Dominate* not donate.

I know that, Captain.

Actually, getting non agendad MH support for dysphoria is extremely difficult - children and young adults are routinely sent down a route that is affirmative of their feelings, when what they actually need initially is a wider approach to their distress.

• Autogynophile:

Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female.

Well there's my new word of the day! There really are so many layers with this, aren't there, so many more than I realised anyway. I feel really sorry for any trans folk just trying to live their lives, caught between extremes and the more radical groups. Must be a mental place to be.

Chalkhillblu why would anyone need to ask them about their surgeries though? If I had a tummy tuck or a boob job, who needs to know but me?

If I had a tummy tuck or a boob job, who needs to know but me?

Nobody - unless you were demanding certain priviliges on account of that tummy took or boob job.

took=tuck

I agree with you OP. I put forward arguments in the consultation questionnaire asking for this to be considered before any decisions are made in changing the GRA.

I was very annoyed that the Labour Party (I'm a member) decided, without nearly enough consultation/consideration, that trans women should be eligible for the women's MP applicant list, so reducing the opportunities for women, and not creating their own list for trans women.