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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trans and third space?

558 replies

Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 12:05

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

OP posts:
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CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 17:48

Either most pass and we do t know and share toilets anyway, making selfID useless.

Or they don't pass and are humiliated, which is it?

Datun · 20/10/2018 17:49

LokiBear

And I have to say, that's another thing that happens to women on toilets. The vast majority of miscarriages.

Something that will not cross the minds of most men.

There are loads of different things that happen to women in toilets, that don't happen to men, and are connected to their biology. Like morning sickness, pregnancy tests, expressing milk, etc, loads.

I'm sorry for your loss.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 17:50

@SmileEachDay

Actually I believe you are incorrect there.

Sadly, there have been misunderstandings about trans rights in some recent media coverage. In particular, it is incorrect to claim that the proposed simplification of the application process for legal gender recognition would reduce being legally a woman to a mere feeling. The reform will still require a trans woman to be living her everyday life as a woman, using female pronouns and with her other identity documents also recording her as female in order to change her birth certificate to match her life. It is just the insulting and pathologising psychiatric report and submission of two years’ worth of bank statements and utility bills that should be scrapped. Not the need to live daily in your gender identity. The legal statutory declaration is a sworn oath that you have started authentically living in your gender identity and intend to remain doing so until death.

James Morton, The Herald. Not sure how to link full article.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good drama though eh?

Are you all scrutinising butch looking women now as well? Just to double check? Vile.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 17:51

A bitch woman doesn't look like a man, they look like a woman with short hair.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 17:51

Butch obviously

easternedge · 20/10/2018 17:55

*Right but you have stated they pass already?

Are you lying about that?*

Am I lying about that? 🤣

Firstly how could I lie about that? Doesn't even make sense.

Secondly I'm talking about the current ways in which a person must prove to a panel of 'experts' that they are living authentically as their preferred gender.

I wasn't talking about a trans person having to defend themselves against a rabid mumsnetter who wants proof before they enter the toilet because they don't 'pass' to use your terminology.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 17:56

As opposed to the idea of those who are themselves as female in spite of being born male, but of course you knew that, for some reason you thought you'd look great by making a statement.

Yes OP. So they're not actually female, are they?

Datun · 20/10/2018 17:56

easternedge

Of course it's a mere feeling. You can't change sex. Men can't live as 'a woman'.

It's either based on a feeling. Or it's based on clothing.

It's certainly not based on reality. Because you can't change sex.

And it's ridiculous to try and reduce the process.

Sex is a protected characteristic under equality law. If anyone can be any sex how does that work?

easternedge · 20/10/2018 17:56

A bitch woman doesn't look like a man, they look like a woman with short hair.

You must lead a very sheltered life. This is simply not true. Thankfully human beings come in a whole host of shapes, sizes and appearances and many times I've wondered over biological sex.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 17:57

I wasn't talking about a trans person having to defend themselves against a rabid mumsnetter who wants proof before they enter the toilet because they don't 'pass' to use your terminology.

You think selfID coming will stop this?
It will make it worse as you'll get vigilantism trying to police it.

It's not going to end well for anyone.

Datun · 20/10/2018 17:57

living authentically as their preferred gender.

How?

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 17:58

I have played contact sport for almost 20 years. I have categorically never played against a man.

Should I have to @easternedge

Men can’t have miscarriages? Should I be forced to discuss intimate details pertaining to a difficult subject with a man for fear of “excluding”?

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 17:58

I actually feel great sympathy for you all and this mania.

Haha the projection! You're the one that doesn't think women should be allowed boundaries.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 17:59

many times I've wondered over biological sex.

That doesn't surprise me, you can't even define female. If you can't get the basics the rest are harder to grasp.

GoatWithACoat · 20/10/2018 17:59

I welcome trans women in female spaces. For all intents and purposes they are women and should be treated as such. I believe i have been sharing these spaces for years with transwomen who just want to get on quietly with their lives and need the spaces to avoid male violence and sexual aggression, just like me.

The difficulty as I see it lies not with the fact that ‘woman ’ is being redifined so much as ‘transwomen’ has been expanded. We used to understand transwomen to have had a life long struggle to change their body and live as a woman. Ashamed of their male body, they rejected their penis and were socialised as women, undertaking painful and expensive surgery to transition.

Now we just have transvestites, blokes that like to put on women’s clothes, drag queens and mysoginits called Dave who fancy being Brenda on some days telling us to accept their lady dicks or die choking on it. It minimises what real transwomen suffer and has created fear and mistrust where there was none previously. The TRA’s have ruined everything, not helped genuine transwomen.

The self id thing removes all gate keeping. Now men can just SAY they are women. End of.

Transwomen need our protection. I welcome them in my space because I accept them as women.

However REAL transwomen do NOT want us to accept their penis, hell, THEY don’t accept their penis. By watering down what it means to be a woman to include male bodies you put them at risk. Real transwomen want to come into our spaces because like us, they want privacy and safety from men when they are most vulnerable.

Transwomen don’t rape women.
Transwomen don’t want us to accept their dicks.
Transwomen do not hate women.
Transwomen don’t identify as male on alternate days of the week.

If they do any of the above they are men and putting on a dress doesn’t change that. Self I.d is wrong on every level.

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 17:59

@datun

I've always wondered about that 'living as a woman' thing. I'm a woman, but I'd find it strage to say I 'live as a woman'. Mostly, I just get on with life.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:00

easternedge

Have you any idea how offensive it is to suggest that gender non confirming women look like men, and men who wear the clothes of women and perform femininity, are women?

It's utterly nonsense. Men and women are biological categories. Where have people got this idea that women must be feminine and men must be masculine. Otherwise they are all wrong?

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:00

For all intents and purposes they are women

Apart from the fact that they are not women?

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:01

The reform will still require a trans woman to be living her everyday life as a woman

How does a male person "live as a woman" exactly?

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:02

IcedPurple

I agree. When you actually start to list it, it's clearly nonsense.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 18:05

*Have you any idea how offensive it is to suggest that gender non confirming women look like men, and men who wear the clothes of women and perform femininity, are women?

It's utterly nonsense. Men and women are biological categories. Where have people got this idea that women must be feminine and men must be masculine. Otherwise they are all wrong?*

My point exactly. I know plenty of women who are not feminine in the least. Plenty of men who are. This is wonderful. I was trying to say, perhaps poorly, that are women who appear very masculine going to be challenged by you lot when trying to use the loo! A pp said that you could always tell sex on appearance. I don't think you can and to attempt to is a dangerous and slippery slope. Potentially awful and humiliating for exactly the category you are claiming to try and protect.

I'm not sure what you mean by your first paragraph right enough.

LokiBear · 20/10/2018 18:05

Goat - I agree completely. Which is why many Transwomen are also against self ID. The bit that blows my mind is that I am somehow excluding people just by being a female and discussing issues that relate to my biology.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:08

Transwomen need our protection. I welcome them in my space because I accept them as women.

Whilst I understand the position that a genuine transsexual should be welcomed, I personally disagree.

Partly because of the few studies that been made, it makes no difference to male
pattern crime (men with gender dysphoria and only men with gender dysphoria were the subjects).

But also because it's a subjective, unidentifiable, unverifiable condition.
Anyone can say it. There is no proof.

If there was, I believe it would be limited to a tiny fraction of the number of people who identify as trans. And, purely on the basis of numbers, I can understand access being granted.

Personally, I disagree with a bunch of men getting to decide women's boundaries. So it's still a no from me.

But that is all moot, because, as has already been pointed out, there is no telling one from t'other.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:08

I don't think you can and to attempt to is a dangerous and slippery slope

Do you not see how self ID Is going to make this worse, innocent transsexuals will be beaten up by vigilante father's "protecting" their daughters.
Innocent people will be hurt because of this.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:08

I don't think you can and to attempt to is a dangerous and slippery slope. Potentially awful and humiliating for exactly the category you are claiming to try and protect.

What do you suggest? Not say anything or react when an obvious smirking male walks in? Why do you care so little about women's feelings and so much about male ones? Actually don't worry, I know.

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