Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

Changing rooms don't have to be staffed they are staffed. More to do with concerns about theft I would imagine.

Not a helpful link but thanks anyway. Just a link of trans criminals not statistics about how many women have been attacked by trans women in female only spaces ( Karen White being the obvious exception) although I will take some time to look through the other years.

Jacques
No TRAs are actually MRAs, aren’t they?

Woman.

Noun.

“An adult human female”

Female

Noun

“of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes”

There is no room in either definition for “penis”

East how is it fair on those religions where single sex provisions are imperative? Are you suggesting they stay in the house and never use public facilities again?

You and they have been sharing toilets with trans women for a long time. Do you actually think you can tell a person's biological sex by just looking at them?

Actually in the case of M to female yes,
no matter how well they think they pass!

Not a helpful link but thanks anyway. Just a link of trans criminals not statistics about how many women have been attacked by trans women in female only spaces

Why is this the bar? Actually being attacked?? Only 6% of rapes result in a conviction. One man's justification was he 'fell' on a woman's vagina.

If I am changing in a communal changing room and a man walks in I want to be able to tell him is in the wrong room.

I don't want have to put up with it until someone attacks me.

No. It's called consent. No.

You're saying places are staffed so you should be safe, why? and you've been attacked in broad daylight and are somehow trying to say that in that case, being in the vulnerable position with your clothes off is the same risk!

No not at all. Im sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I'm saying that i have literally never heard of women being attacked in changing rooms or toilets by trans women but I have heard of plenty of women being attacked in broad daylight in public, unisex spaces by men.

We don't freak out about going to the park or on the train.

If I am changing in a communal changing room and a man walks in I want to be able to tell him is in the wrong room.

Feel free!

Do you actually think you can tell a person's biological sex by just looking at them?

Yes. There are 6,500 genetic differences between men and women.

And, given there is absolutely no need for a transwoman to make a single alteration, then yes we can tell.

On the incredibly rare occasion when someone passes - i'm not sure what you want women to do about that exactly. It's up to that person and their conscience.

Or a third space. Mixed sex space. For either sex, so no one feels 'othered'.

You and they have been sharing toilets with trans women for a long time.

Then why change things, if this is happening why the push for self ID?

Or is it not really happening?

🤯

Mind blown. Pointless engaging here.

I actually feel great sympathy for you all and this mania.

Do you actually think you can tell a person's biological sex by just looking at them?
Considering 80% of them have apparently been attacked for being trans you'd have to wonder how they are identified?

easternedge

You know women have been attacked by men, but not transwomen? Nearly half of the tranwomen in prison are there for sex offences. Just because you don't personally know them, doesn't mean they doesn't exist.

And transwomen are men. However they feel inside, statistically in terms of sexual violence, there is no difference.

If I am changing in a communal changing room and a man walks in I want to be able to tell him is in the wrong room.

Feel free!

And if he says he's a woman?

Feel free!

If the self ID comes in, ANY man will be able to be in a female space, and say then identify as a woman. And woman will have to accept it or risk being accused of a hate crime.

How on earth can someone accuse a woman discussing her miscarriage of excluding transwomen? My dh also lost a child when I miscarried our 2nd baby. He didnt go through the physical trauma of actually going through a labour process and expelling our tiny baby into his hand all alone in the bathroom at 2am. That trauma is mine and mine alone. I went through that. My dh couldnt ever know what it feels like. Nor could a transwoman, because neither have a uterus. That isnt to say that their experience of loss and devestation shouldn't be acknowledged, supported and understood, but, it is very fricking different. Im sorry you were harrased like that, Jacques. How dare some hijack your grief.

Then why change things, if this is happening why the push for self ID?

To stop trans people having to face the humiliation of proving and explaining themselves to strangers?

Pointless engaging here

You haven’t engaged at all.

As usual with people who cry transphobia, that is all you do, then flounce saying “no point engaging”.

Would you care to answer my points?

What's the matter, are you unable to answer my questions?

Mind blown. Pointless engaging here.

Your mind is blown because you have no coherent argument. It doesn't exist.

Other than be nice.

There is no logical refutation to maintaining sex segregation. None.

No the third space is not a good option. Why on earth should a person living as a woman or indeed a man be forced into a third space... to be othered more than they already are?

We're a species that likes categories. By the same logic as a woman, I should have the right to wander into the men's toilets rather than be forced into the women's by virtue of my sex.

I see the point you're making but I guess the answer to my original question isn't as straightforward as I thought. The prison issue, the women's refuge issue and the sporting issue remain a big problem though, wouldn't you agree @easternedge?

To stop trans people having to face the humiliation of proving and explaining themselves to strangers?

Right but you have stated they pass already?

Are you lying about that?

Thank you Loki, that’s kind.

I don’t know how to say this without being flippant but I’m quite robust and it was far enough back for me to be able to handle it. It doesn’t bear thinking about if it happened to someone feeling desperately vulnerable.

Sorry to hear you’ve had a loss too

the idea of those who are themselves as female in spite of being born male

An 'idea' is one thing.

Reality is quite another.

And the reality is that if you are born male you cannot be female. Ever.

but of course you knew that, for some reason you thought you'd look great by making a statement.

No, I don't know that at all.

Can you describe the process by which a y chromosome - which is marked in every cell of a male body - can be transformed into an x chromosome?

LokiBear