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Original poster

Trans and third space?

558 replies

Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 12:05

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

OP posts:
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7
GoatWithACoat · 20/10/2018 18:10

Apart from the fact that they are not women?

No but does it matter in spaces like toilets to keep them safe?

It matters now only because men with penis’s want to tell us they are trans and rapists entering women’s prisons etc etc. If ’transwoman’ meant what it used to where is the issue?

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:11

Male violence exists, it's not just about the safety of women, although it's a big part, transexuals will be poked prodded and interrogated, where enobidy used to turn a blind eye people will be looking out for them.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:11

easternedge

I'm not sure you understand. Women's radar for detecting a man is so finely honed it's not funny. It's a piece of piss. Likewise detecting a woman, however masculine she might look.

Believing that aside, what has it got to do with self ID?

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:11

But leaving

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:12

No body*

Rhayader · 20/10/2018 18:13

I don’t particually care about trans women in women’s toilets but changing rooms do bother me... I think changing rooms should be done based on sex. If you have a penis you shouldn’t be in the women’s changing rooms (unless you are a young boy with his mother!)

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:14

If self ID comes in do you think the thousands of members of the public who object will magically accept it?

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:14

No men will be men and fucking end up killing transpeople.

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:15

No but does it matter in spaces like toilets to keep them safe?

It is not the responsiblity of women to keep transwomen - who are a subset of men - safe, especially if that increases the risk to women.

This is something men need to work out among themselves.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 18:15

I'm not sure you understand. Women's radar for detecting a man is so finely honed it's not funny. It's a piece of piss. Likewise detecting a woman, however masculine she might look.

Believing that aside, what has it got to do with self ID?*

Speak for yourself. What a ridiculous statement 🤣

Was all in reference to a pp talking about challenging men in female spaces. My first point was we have shared toilets with trans women for many years and not noticed. My second point was that it was dangerous and a slippery slope to start challenging folk based on appearance.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:18

Also easternedge your arguments are just come across as demands. Do as I say, otherwise I'll kick up any old fuss.

You initially said a third space was othering. You have since said guess what you can't tell.

How is a third space othering?

It would be mixed sex. Which is what you are suggesting by allowing men into women's spaces. It would be open to anyone whether they are trans or not. So the status of the people using it, would be many and varied. And non-binary people could use it without a qualm.

I think most people now realise that it is a logical and suitable solution. They are also fully aware that the only reason transpeople don't advocate for it is because they cannot get their validation kick out of it.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:19

My first point was we have shared toilets with trans women for many years and not noticed. My second point was that it was dangerous and a slippery slope to start challenging folk based on appearance.
So you agree self ID will create policing of sex segregated spaces and turn people from not batting an eyelid into dangers.

Yay self ID, you created a problem and atmosphere about trans people who were not noticed before.

GoatWithACoat · 20/10/2018 18:21

I hear you and I used to agree but I think if the TRA’s had just fucked off it would never have been an issue.

If someone has lived as a girl / woman all their lives so had had female socialisation and has had surgery and now has a female body (no penis) then why would we not embrace them as a woman?

The issues have only arisen as women’s sports, prisons, refugees etc are under threat from self i.d and transwoman’ now includes men with penisis. If this had never have happened and the gatekeeping to be recognised as Transwoman’ had remained I think the anger towards transwomen wouldn’t be there.

TRA’s have done irreversible damage imo.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:21

easternedge

Of course we noticed. That's why it was an honour system and not a deceit system.

If you're not looking, you may not realise. But most women will realise. It's a distinct characteristic of certain transwomen that they believe they pass. When they really, really don't. We don't say anything, because it's hurtful.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 18:23

t would be mixed sex. Which is what you are suggesting by allowing men into women's spaces. It would be open to anyone whether they are trans or not. So the status of the people using it, would be many and varied. And non-binary people could use it without a qualm.

I'm genuinely sorry if I sound demanding. I am frustrated. I actually am willing to concede on that one. When I read it at first I thought of it as a kind of forced space where trans people had to go. I think I see what mean a bit better now. A wholly open unisex space where anyone can go. Not a bad idea. We would all have the option of the third space then?

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:24

Part of me thinks Self ID is being used to create hostility where there was a decent trust system in place.

FloraFox · 20/10/2018 18:26

The reform will still require a trans woman to be living her everyday life as a woman, using female pronouns and with her other identity documents also recording her as female in order to change her birth certificate to match her life.

You are incorrect. The proposal is that the only requirement will be a statutory declaration that the applicant intends to live in their preferred gender but there is no definition of what that means. It will mean nothing.

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:26

If someone has lived as a girl / woman all their lives so had had female socialisation and has had surgery and now has a female body (no penis) then why would we not embrace them as a woman?

Because they are not women.

Because they do not have female bodies, no matter how much surgery or hormone treatment they have done.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain exactly what is meant by a male person 'living as a woman'.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 18:28

I feel for you easternedge, you've got more energy for this pointlessness than I have tonight. Good on you.

OP, third spaces are unworkable for many reasons. On top of that they are unnecessary, not to mention unwanted by the majority of people who would be forced encouraged to use them. Usually additional facilities are at the request of a minority group, not against their will, against the will of the venues who would have to find the space and money to provide them, and against all good common sense; think about how utterly minute the possibility is of a traumatic encounter between a trans woman's penis and a vulnerable woman in a public loo, or a criminal imposter who would previously have been deterred by a sign on the door suddenly being able to cause mayhem unchallenged. It's just a nonsense solution to a problem that yes, is within the realms of possibility, but does not appear to happen in any of the 28 countries with self-Id with any significant regularity.

It would be a far more proportionate response to upgrade existing men's and women's facilities to be as secure and private as possible (changing cubicles and showers for example), rather than trying to carve out a third space to foist on trans individuals that they don't even want in the first place!

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:30

than trying to carve out a third space to foist on trans individuals that they don't even want in the first place!

Fine - let's just foist transwomen, ie men, on women instead! That's what women are for after all, isn't it?

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:30

My trans friends are so worried about this, it's going to wipe out years of respect that has been built up all becuase of a hijacked cause. So much damage is being done.

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 18:31

Your lack of response is telling easternedge

Obviously because there simply IS no response

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:31

OP, third spaces are unworkable for many reasons.

What would those be then? For people unfamiliar with your esteemed opinions.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:31

GoatWithACoat

I don't disagree with your assessment. But I have become hardened to the issue, on an ideological basis. Not just a practical one.

I'm sick to death of men deciding that it's acceptable to put the boot on my neck, and all they are working out is where to place it.

But that's because I have seen umpteen different men arguing over who has the right to be called a woman and decide their boundaries.

Tara Hudson, with their '7 inch surprise', saying that it's about longevity. I.e. how long they have been transitioned. India Willoughby saying it's about gender dysphoria. Shon Faye saying it's about the law. Debbie Hayton saying it's about surgery. And umpteen others claiming it's about saying it out loud and anyone who wants to be.

I've lost count of the number of panel shows/radio programmes I have seen where women's boundaries are being discussed, and no woman is actually asked or represented. It's all men.

So it's a no from me.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 18:32

Fine - let's just foist transwomen, ie men, on women instead!

They're already there. Have been for decades. Please point me to all the women who cared before this whole thing kicked off?