To think that trans people should use the disabled toilets ?

[PerverseConverse]

Actually it's not me that thinks this but this is what is currently being argued on Facebook.

Disabled facilities were hard fought for and I don't think they should be used by anyone else. However I'm not sure what the solution is but it's definitely not to use the disable facilities.

These are examples of what has been said:

"Personally, I believe that if a transgender person passes as the gender they have transitioned too then I have no problem with sharing a toilet with them cuz I wouldn’t be able to know whether or not they were transgender but if the person looks like a man in a dress and heels, I’m sorry but they should use the disabled toilets. There is a reason for this, the women’s toilets is a safe space for biological females. That includes sexual assault victims who suffer with PTSD. It may not bother all victims but it may cause detrimental effects on others and we should take into consideration the mental health of those victims thus I say give transgenders access to the disabled toilets so that they don’t cause anxiety and distress for trauma victims. That is reasonable is it not?"

And:

"What is wrong with using the disabled toilets anyway? People often use them when the cue is too long for the regular toilets but now people have a problem? I believe it to be a very reasonable request and I have known transgenders male to female who have requested to use the disabled toilets for the very reason of they were thinking of those that had been traumatised by men. They did that of their own choice and were being considerate towards others and I applaud them for it. They have said that once they look more feminine, they will consider using the women’s toilets but only once they look like a woman.
The difference between those that look like a woman and those that don’t is that, unless you look at their medical records, you can’t tell that they were born a man and thus, it doesn’t cause anxiety as you pass them in the toilets but someone who is quite obviously was born a man could do that.
It is not an unreasonable request in order to ensure that everyone is comfortable in their environment and thus, no one has to suffer anymore than they already are psychologically. I believe there is nothing wrong with a transgender using the disabled toilets, we expect the disabled to go into a totally separate room instead of sharing with the rest of their gender so why is it now so unreasonable asking that transgenders do the same.
However I believe it to be unreasonable to ask a PTSD victim to be put into a situation that makes them feel uncomfortable. I also believe that it is unreasonable to request a transgender male to female to use the male toilets. Thus, do give me a solution that would not potentially cause someone to suffer psychologically that isn’t the use of disabled toilets"

I'm too tired to even begin to argue with this viewpoint right now.

It's from Posie Parker's Facebook review yesterday. Not sure the link will work but :

m.facebook.com/greenhousedeptford/

You'd have to scroll to her review.

It's interesting, trans say they need a space away from men, and whelp there ya go, a space away from men which does not impose or trespass against other people's boundaries. And yet they insist on cramming into women's shower cubicle when we are naked and have already said we don't consent. funny that.

It does trespass against peoples boundaries - disabled peoples boundaries count too. There are so few disabled toilets as it is that if anyone that isn’t wanted in the ladies toilets goes in the disabled then where are the disabled meant to go? It’s bad enough now that loads of able bodied people feel entitled to use them without adding more

@ohello you can speak for yourself. You might be able to manage with your disability letting transgender people use the disabled loos for the very noble purpose of ensuring they don't share a female space.
Obviously you have not stated what your disability is though.
Some of us wheelchair users have continence issues and catheters that simply can not wait as it is and find it difficult enough to get out and about and use facilities, so why when my catheter needs changing or I am about to wet myself and need to change in an accessible loo should I share that space with somebody who does not need a disabled space?
Your argument bears absolutely no weight! It's easy for you to state with no details given of your disability but you have a very clear and distinct lack of understanding of disabled facilities and their needs, the third space is not the answer here. Create a fourth if you will but do not take facilities away from people with a desperate need

All toilets should be unisex and fully accessible.

I don't have a problem with trans people using the ladies. I think it's really petty to make an issue of it! The cubicles have locks on the doors and nobody gets naked in the sink area!How would you police it anyway?? Some trans people look feminine and you would assume they are female unless you saw their genitalia.

I'm with @OneStepSideways with this one.They're all cubicled anyway, and for those you deem "pass" how would you even know anyway? You couldn't even begin to police that.
Transwomen will have been going in the ladies for always. I've never had a problem with that or even thought about it. If they're just going about their business, they're not harming anyone.

All toilets should be unisex and fully accessible.

Unisex toilets are fine only in safe busy areas. But the loos are always pissed all over. :(

I've never had a problem with that or even thought about it

But you don't get to decide for all women.

@zzzzz I'm aware of that but it doesn't make it right. Places that are aware of the problem do have separate parent and child changing spaces though! Which funnily enough in John Lewis are gender neutral.

In an ideal world, when space allows, I would suggest four separate toilets:

1. Accessible (I have noticed many of these toilets are locked by radar key - interested to know what the disabled people on this thread think about that? Is it good in that in prevents non-disabled people using the toilet or does it make it difficult for you to use it yourself?)
2. Women’s
3. Men’s
4. Unisex with changing facilities

This would mean that parents of any gender can change their children, and people who are not comfortable using the women’s/men’s for whatever reason could also use the unisex toilet - without any of those people using an accessible toilet when a disabled person needs it.

Of course, the problem arises when there isn’t space for four separate toilets. I don’t what the solution is. As a women, I personally don’t mind if trans women use the women’s toilets, but I understand that some women do mind. I guess if a person is “genuinely” trans they might present as more feminine and less triggering for a female victim of male abuse. The problem would be if a person presented as masculine and therein lies the whole debate of course.

Tbh I think toilets are not the biggest issue, I think women’s refuges and hospital wards are a bigger concern.

Argh excuse the typos

Given anyone can purchase a radar key on amazon they are pointless!

No. They should use the areas appropriate for their sex. Unless post-op where its a bit more complicated, but they should be campaigning for an additional unisex space tbh.

I have a quite serious disability, and I don't use disabled areas most of the time as generally I can use the non-disabled ones and figure that the disabled areas should be kept free as often as possible for people who really need them. I don't think that not wanting to use the appropriate areas for your sex should mean you take up a disabled area instead, lets not forget that disabled people fought long and hard for those spaces.

It's not loos that are the big pita. Our gym has a couple of disabled rooms which have a loo/shower and changing area in each room.

I'd be really pissed off if I was waiting to use these (thank I God I don't need to) and find it being used by someone else - either bevause they don't want to use the rooms of their own sex or because they have been hounded put of their own sex room because people of the oppose sex have been allowed in.

The men's changing room is almost certainly where I'd go in that situation Fekko.

Given the men who stay in the men's are "safe" because they're showing they have zero interest in being in women's spaces, and I have been hounded out by potentially dodgy men who insist their personal validation/ulterior motive (after all, who can tell?) is more important than everyone else's opinions combined.

Maybe they would do something about it if I pointed out that if others of their sex didn't insist on pushing their way into my changing room, I'd happily return there.

What about the pervy men who will say they are women so they can follow a group of young teen girls into the loo? Don't tell me it doesn't happen, won't happen. Of course it will.

Definitely should not use the disabled toilets. And no to unisex toilets! Every one I've ever used has stunk of piss. At least with women's toilets the worst smell is evil body spray

Imagine it:

Me
Men: Hey, this is the men's you can't be in here!
Me: I'm sorry but there is a man in the ladies changing and I don't feel safe alone with him there. I can't get him out.

I would expect either an acceptance or some reaction that ultimately removes the man from my safe space. (Although it could well be me being removed I suppose, but if that is the attitude of the venue, then I'm better off knowing that!)

It happens. But you can tell at them to get out.

If this changes not only won't you be able to challenge a man who looks like Brian Blessed marching in the ladies, scratching his bollocks, the bastard will probably sue you for hurting his lady feelz.

This is horrific!

If you don't want male bodies in women's toilets or changing rooms please complete this before monday:

fairplayforwomen.com/full_guide/

There were 65 sexual assaults a week, including 29 alleged rapes, on women's mental health wards in April May and June 2017 due to male bodied people having access to vulnerable women.

PER WEEK. None of it would happen if the space was segregated by sex.

We don't have sex segregated spaces because every man is a rapist, no-one sensible believes that. We have sex segregated spaces because we can't tell by looking which men are safe and which aren't, and we want - as a society - to protect women and girls from potential male violence.

Just as we can't necessarily tell by looking which transpeople are make bodied and which aren't.

If we want to continue to protect women and girls from the potential of male violence then it is quite clear that male bodied people, no matter how they dress, should not be allowed to use the female loos and changing rooms.

Of course, if we as a society no longer give a flying fuck about protecting women and girls from the potential of male violence then we don't need to bother with anything but unisex loos and changing rooms.

@Jux seriously? If a Pervy man wants to follow a group of girls into the toilet to watch them use the sink then I'm not sure calling himself a man is going to stop him. Sexual predators will attack women anyway whether they identify as male or female, if they are going to commit a crime then they will. What are they going to see anyway? I mean you see more in a men's loos

@AnotherEmma most disabled people have radar keys so I don't think that plays a part really

But just - if the changes happen then any man can just wander into a ladies loo or changing area and use it. Even if they are just doing it because they can't be arsed to walk to the other side of the building the men's room. And you can't ask them to leave - how is that right?