That a male just won a women’s cycling World Championship?

[Badmoonsarising]

Can’t really get my mind round this tbh though i was aware of another male Laurel Hubbard taking medals in the Women’s Weight Lifting World Championships earlier this year. Are we really ready for males winning the Women’s Wimbledon Title and the women’s Olympic 100m Final?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/15/trans-woman-rachel-mckinnon-cycling-world-championship/amp/

don the difference being that sport wasn't ever fair in the first place.

You don;t get to the top on merit and work ethic...you get their on genetic luck.

But don't you agree that everything should be done as far as possible to make it fair? So it's unfortunate if you are a man and competing against the likes of Usain Bolt, but there are no other variables which can be further controlled to make it fair (well I supposed you could do height etc but then there would be endless categories).

There are very obvious variables which can be controlled to ensure that women who are at the top of their game are recognised ie. Sex segregated sport.

What beats me is how McKinnon can actually feel they've won anything - if you have a male body and can only win against a group of women, what kind of victory is that? Mind you, it says on the Twitter account "I'm an internationally recognized expert on the science and ethics of transgender inclusion in sport" so presumably that's okay then?

Also, if this spreads, what the heck are the next Olympics going to look like?

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

Take a minute to make your views heard

M3lon you've made your point abundantly clear - you can't see why this is an issue, don't think many women will be affected, think it will be a short lived dad in any case and don't particularly like sport anyway.

You're now starting to target individuals (eg Jacques, who I know from other threads does care very deeply about women's rugby).

I think, having made your point, and also admitted you're not actually interested in women's sport, this might be the appropriate point to bow out of the thread. Otherwise what you're doing begins to look like a form of trolling.

My injury permitting, I have one shot left to have a season at top level.

It’s taken 20 years almost to get to the point where women have this chance.

olean I think if you read my posts you will see I definitely do not think that.

Honestly the echo chamber here is more like a laser cavity.

I don't think TWAW, I think sport should be segregated by sex not gender, but because I also think this particular news won't really impact grass roots sport I need to be drummed out of the thread?

You really have very very low tolerance for dissent from the party line!

Tribalism is indeed on the rise and rise. I think we all need to make sure we aren't removing potential supporters from the anti-self-ID pool by insisting on a purity of ideology that is entirely unnecessary.

This came up on another TW thread recently. People who were broadly speaking anti Self Id being drummed off the thread because they think gender dysphoria exists, even though they don't think the majority of vocal TW actually have it.

Don't alienate potential allies!

The concept of transgender athletes is a complicated one - far more complicated than the likes of most of us MN-ers can weigh in on, but can we not turn every thread into a hive of transphobic bigotry? You don't get brownie points for calling her male. That's just being an asshat.

Good point by Roystonv

All of you reading and posting and lurking - all of you who have dismissed the Feminist boards as "transphobic". THIS is the sort of shit we have been trying to tell people about.

This is why we are being abused and harassed and assaulted by the people who don't want us to say anything and use "bigot" as a handy way to throw people off the scent. Because they know reality is too outrageous and people won't stand for it if they knew.

fermat yes - I can see why you think I'm trolling. From my perspective it feels like put one foot out of line with the all TW issues are everything mantra and you get savaged.

Well I will leave you all to it....but I'd rather you welcomed the waverers instead of trashing them, because we need them.

wren wait till you see what they call you in order to score more brownie points!

Good luck with any even vaguely balanced comments!

Not had time to rtft as not feeling well but can I ask - has the winner undergone surgery and all the hormone therapy etc or just self i.d. as a woman?

I’ve already posted some reasons why it does affect grassroots sports for players and coaches.

Also, there are girls losing out on sports scholarships in the USA (including UK & other international students wanting to study in the USA). And these are not just elite athletes.

fermat yes - I can see why you think I'm trolling. From my perspective it feels like put one foot out of line with the all TW issues are everything mantra and you get savaged.

It was more the 'I'm not really that fussed about sports so who cares if some genetic outliers (ie. Men) win in women's sports' that made it look like you might be trolling. Not just because you had a different position.

Good luck with any even vaguely balanced comments

There have been many balanced comments, including from experts.

No one is looking for brownie points, we are not being transphobic we are stating a scientific fact.

I'm starting to have some respect for Lance Armstrong now. He at least put some effort into cheating.

It really really doesn't matter. Keep encouraging girls to do sport! The reasons for girls to do sport was never so they could win olympic gold. It was for their health and their enjoyment.

You can't be serious? Tell that to every single female Olympian. What sexist drivel.

M3lon

Your posts don't seem to make sense. You seem to be saying transwomen should compete with men and transmen should compete with women. But in a roundabout way?

Well yes, obviously.

The problem with this is women, top-class athletes, are being beaten by mediocre men. Men who can't cut it in their own category, any longer. Or after a lifetime of competing amongst men, but then becoming too old.

You can't match men against women. Because it's not just about testosterone. Quite clearly.

Otherwise you would have trans men beating men. Where are they?

Women take sport just as seriously as men. I don't understand why you think they don't. That's nonsense. From a very young age, too.

In Iran, where homosexuality is illegal, and so their percentage of transwomen is very high, the Iranian women's football team is made up of half men. It's sexism at its most basic.

Because however low a level you go to, men and women are not equivalent physically.

And you can stop with demanding women stop talking about this saying that other women will give up sport.

That's just another version of women, stfu, the men are talking.

The concept of transgender athletes is a complicated one - far more complicated than the likes of most of us MN-ers can weigh in on, but can we not turn every thread into a hive of transphobic bigotry? You don't get brownie points for calling her male. That's just being an asshat

How is stating reality being an 'asshat'?

If you haven't make sure you fill out the govt. GRA consultation form before Friday. If you have no idea what this is hop over to the feminism boards.

Sorry I can't link.

I am beyond appalled.

I sit and weep for me, my daughter and all women whose very identity is being stolen by a small bastarding group of fucking MEN.

The concept of transgender athletes is a complicated one - far more complicated than the likes of most of us MN-ers can weigh in on, but can we not turn every thread into a hive of transphobic bigotry? You don't get brownie points for calling her male. That's just being an asshat.

Be nice ladies whilst males fuck you over and steal your stuff.

Nobody on here could be a bigger asshat than McKinnon.

On a side note, it’s great to see a few other women’s rugby players here.
Jacques Good luck - wishing you an injury-free season.

elephant last comment I promise - I suspect the TW competitors are also outliers in the sense that the average man can't beat the best woman in the world. The gap is of course big, but it isn't that big. You've still got to have some genetic gift to beat the best female competitors even when XY.

Fearandsurprise

Thank you not even sure the leg will hold up to trial but definitely worth a try.

M3lon - I think your last post (at 17:09) was in reply to me?

My point is that men are not simply a genetic quirk away from being women - we are fundamentally physiologically different. Every single cell in our bodies contains either XX or XY chromosomes. And as this biology professor explains, men are about 99.9% identical according to their genomes but women share only about 98.5% of their genetic make up with men. We are different, and any attempts to minimise that with a handwave only serves to penalise women in pretty much every situation.