To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

As Early just said - what's the criteria for the third space? Is it put every transwoman in there?
As that's how it sounds.

So we should never accept them as women, regardless of their journey on transitioning and how far along they are? Just say go over there to your space, you're not one of us?

At what stage along their journey would you accept them as a 'woman' and not just a self IDer (as you have said you have concerns about self id?)

What I'd hope that at least some will recognise from my post is that we can disagree on the female/woman/transwoman piece while still all agreeing that we need more open, tolerant and inclusive debate to ensure concerns are heard, vulnerable people are safeguarded and all of our rights are respected in light of the any policy changes.

I can definitely agree with all of that.

As Early just said - what's the criteria for the third space? Is it put every transwoman in there?

But see, this is it isn't it? The very fact that there is no answer that everyone can agree on, that there is no line that can be drawn, just shows that the idea that people can go from being men to women just isn't one that can be upheld.

That is not me 'having a problem with transwomen' that is me saying that the concept of men becoming women just does not work. The whole thing is a mess tbh.

At what stage along their journey would you accept them as a 'woman' and not just a self IDer (as you have said you have concerns about self id?)

You're not answering the question, just deflecting it back to but "what do you" think?
It's coming as clear you want them all out.
I said there's valid concerns over just being able to self ID one day and walk in, yes.
I have no problems with all transwomen though and don't want to see all of them as a group excluded.

So men should never accept them as men, regardless of their journey? Just say go over there to their space, you're not one of us?

Ok, I'm being a little facetious there, but the point I'm trying to make is that nobody is trying to stop men being unaccepting of other men (I'm not trying to use men in a goady sense there, btw) just because they don't fit the narrow definition our society has of manliness. Or stop men beating up transwomen to the point where they are scared to go to a public toilet. That's the problem here.

I do feel sympathy for transwomen who fear men. But I don't think accepting them unconditionally into all female spaces helps solve the problem. And the men, the ones causing that problem, are left completely unaffected by this.

That is not me 'having a problem with transwomen' that is me saying that the concept of men becoming women just does not work.

Even if they've had all the surgery? Then what? The but they've got a penis and they're not allowed in our spaces argument on here falls down flat there.

Well yes. But women's spaces are women's spaces. And if some women are saying 'no' to men being in their space on the basis that they say they are women, then that has to be respected.

This. It's a consent issue. Women's right to be uncomfortable and say no should be respected by other women who are ok with males in their spaces.

It's never going to be resolved anytime soon if some will only ever see all transwomen as men.

But see, this is it isn't it? The very fact that there is no answer that everyone can agree on, that there is no line that can be drawn, just shows that the idea that people can go from being men to women just isn't one that can be upheld.

Thank you for answering elephant, it’s telling that you are the only person here willing to answer my questions rather than just demanding we answer yours.

I do disagree though, the rules of the GRC have been accepted - why are these guidelines not good enough? Would you say that in your opinion, even if a transwomen holds a GRC under the current criteria - they should still not be accepted into woman’s facilities? You believe there should just be a blanket rule in place that no trans person should have access to their new genders facilities?

As they believe there's no such thing as feeling like a woman too

How could this possibly be defined?
How do you define this?
Surely it's socially conditioned, if it does exist at all?

I am one of 'they' who don't believe there is such a thing.

Oh God, are we back on so describe what it is to be a woman again? I already have and others have too. Repeatedly.
Now we've got I don't believe there's such a thing or experience it so therefore it can't exist.

It's never going to be resolved anytime soon if some will only ever see all transwomen as men.

Lots of people see them as the male people they are. However much sympathy they may have. Its not an uncommon view at all.

I do disagree though, the rules of the GRC have been accepted - why are these guidelines not good enough? Would you say that in your opinion, even if a transwomen holds a GRC under the current criteria - they should still not be accepted into woman’s facilities? You believe there should just be a blanket rule in place that no trans person should have access to their new genders facilities?

The number of people with a GRC is tiny. The vast majority of people who come under the trans umbrella do not have one, so actually you are quite unlikely to come across someone with one. I am happy enough that if you have a GRC you can use the facilities, but again you can't ask for a GRC in changing rooms etc can you? And if self id comes in then literally anyone can use the facilities. Like I said, the idea that men can become women has caused a big mess.

So make mens spaces and services unisex, and leave women alone. We have enough to deal with.

Thank you for answering elephant, it’s telling that you are the only person here willing to answer my questions rather than just demanding we answer yours

Very telling. Although also grateful for elephant answering as actual discussion can happen as seen if points are answered.

Sex-segregated spaces should exist for when it is necessary. Toilets, changing rooms, prisons, sport, etc. Because otherwise, why have sex-segregation at all?

Unisex spaces in addition to those sex-segregated spaces, would work perfectly not only for trans individuals, but also families, fathers with daughters, non-binary types and all those women and men who state they have absolutely no problem with unisex spaces. That's a lot of people who would be using unisex spaces, therefore I disagree with PPs that it is 'othering'. Because it is not just trans people that would benefit from unisex spaces and not just trans people that would use them.

Unisex spaces in addition to those sex-segregated spaces, would work perfectly not only for trans individuals, but also families, fathers with daughters, non-binary types and all those women and men who state they have absolutely no problem with unisex spaces. That's a lot of people who would be using unisex spaces, therefore I disagree with PPs that it is 'othering'. Because it is not just trans people that would benefit from unisex spaces and not just trans people that would use them.

Totally agree, pancake.

So from the past few posts (not elephant who's actually engaging)
we have "leave women alone" andalso they're the men they are.
Sums the whole mess up and EXACTLY why people want no part of that.
Blatant problem with all transwomen from some.

Not getting exactly what they want isn't an acceptable outcome for TRAs.

They're not known for compromise.

You're being obtuse and you know it.

No I'm not Verbeena. Give it up.

FIN