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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

999 replies

abacucat · 11/10/2018 10:05

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

OP posts:
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7
Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 09:19

He can thank me another time.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:20

With a patronising head pat of a darling. Script like.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:22

Wrong in YOUR opinion.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 09:22

If you say so. We only have 70 posts left btw. Let's not waste them Smile

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 09:23

I agree, what I think has changed here is that there are groups of people less happy to be boxed in based on physicality where they cannot identify with their categorised group.

Yes. But no one can 'identify' out of womanhood. Because of their female bodies. To suggest that they can is suggesting that women can simply 'identify' out of their oppression.

Having said that, it is said that the huge rise in Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria could be an attempt by teenage girls to do so.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 09:23

Wrong in YOUR opinion.

No, demonstrably wrong.

Datun · 12/10/2018 09:23

louis

I agree, what I think has changed here is that there are groups of people less happy to be boxed in

See this is where, to me, the eyes open/eyes shut part happens.

Because on the surface it looks like people are less happy to be boxed in, and therefore are breaking out of their gender boxes. But actually what's happening is they are forcing people to be identified on the basis of societal imposed gender.

Instead of a man saying I'm breaking out of masculinity, displaying femininity, and gender busting. He saying in order to break out of masculinity and display femininity, I have to identify as a woman. Because only women do that. It's as regressive as fuck.

(Meanwhile, women who try and break out of the feminine societal roles and into masculinity, by identifying is a man, are still talked over in meetings, raped and have their gynaecological issues disregarded.)

Louislovesmud · 12/10/2018 09:23

I should probably clarify - my reproductive shortcomings haven't left me in any doubt that I'm female or that this is a male experience. It may well be why I've considered a definition of womanhood that moves past reproductive and chromosomal factors.

I also agree there is no set woman characteristic, but would say that in the society that I am part of there is a division of gender based roles and expectations (a whole new rant is available on that Grin) and I feel more aligned with a number of aspects of one of those than the other.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 09:24

Because on the surface it looks like people are less happy to be boxed in, and therefore are breaking out of their gender boxes. But actually what's happening is they are forcing people to be identified on the basis of societal imposed gender.

So true. It's regressive as fuck.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:24

Yes, I do say so, it's the script from the beginning. You know it as much as I do but are trying to make out you're doing nothing of the sort.
Then the other poster saying "but that's what's happening out in the public domain?' when a poster said upthread that transwomen are throwing out their toys from the pram, wanting rights etc.
Othering. Constantly. Dangerous slope to go down,

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 09:26

I'm not trying to make anything out. Onlookers will judge both you and I as they see fit, Verbeeena. I don't care.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:26

I know you don't, that much is blindingly obvious.

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 09:27

It may well be why I've considered a definition of womanhood that moves past reproductive and chromosomal factors.

But all women are different, have different personalities, different likes and dislikes different everything like that. What sort of things are you talking about that all women could have in common that isn't based on the material reality of having a female body?

Can I just say I'm so glad we are having an actual discussion about this and its not being derailed by 'there is no point in debating with you'. It's a shame there aren't many posts left on this thread.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:30

Can I just say I'm so glad we are having an actual discussion about this and its not being derailed by 'there is no point in debating with you'

You'll debate when you feel there's a way to pin on physical. Anyone just saying that for them it's a mind and a physical thing equally, gets laughed off, ignored or insulted.
There's been a few. Not just from me. Trying to. All ignored or ridiculed.As it's the "wrong" answer.

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 09:34

You'll debate when you feel there's a way to pin on physical. Anyone just saying that for them it's a mind and a physical thing equally, gets laughed off, ignored or insulted.
There's been a few. Not just from me.Trying to. All ignored or ridiculed.As it's the "wrong" answer

Sorry, like I said, if you will excuse me I am trying to have a discussion with another poster about the physical and the mind. No laughing, no ridiculing. Just a bit of back of forth discussion.

If you would like to join in, please feel free.

Datun · 12/10/2018 09:34

there is a division of gender based roles and expectations (a whole new rant is available on that grin) and I feel more aligned with a number of aspects of one of those than the other.

Well yes! That's personality. It's not innate to a particular sex.

You get gender nonconforming men and women, all the time. So much so it makes a slight mockery of people thinking that most people are gender conforming. Therefore it can't be predictor of sex.

It suits a patriarchal society to make women conform to a feminine gender. To do the unpaid housework, the emotional, and sexual labour. To be objectified (porn, prostitution, the media portrayal of women). Women's role was to provide sex on demand, as evidenced by the law only changing for marital rape in 1992.

Women showed how capable they were during the war. The country had to rely on them for everything as the men were away fighting.

It's no coincidence that the 1950s housewife is a trope. After the war men wanted their jobs back, and the women were reluctant to give up their new found independence. So the government went on a massive marketing exercise to get them back in the kitchen.

When you look back at the newspaper/magazine ads, etc, and the heavy media input into what makes a woman, it's fairly shocking. And you are left in little doubt as to the patriarchal expectation of women's roles.

Until you can remove that, no one will know whether or not sandwich making or sewing labels/buttons is an innate characteristic usually confined to the female sex.

(Which makes me laugh, because how come all the top chefs are historically men, and so are tailors).

Louislovesmud · 12/10/2018 09:35

Datun There are elements here that I totally agree with. It's the same concept that phrases like "man up" and "run like a girlfriend" grow out of and pisses me off massively.

Where I diverge is that as I understand transgenderism and dysphoria is that it isn't the same as saying that "I feel feminine" but rather "I feel I actually am a woman". I'm not transgender so could be wrong and happy for someone in that position to correct me if so.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:39

I am trying to have a discussion with another poster about the physical and the mind. No laughing, no ridiculing. Just a bit of back of forth discussion.

As you have a physical angle to latch on, as I said. You're able to debate then. You can't or won't accept that for others, it's for the mind and physical equally.

Datun · 12/10/2018 09:40

louis

I agree, they will use that phrase. But as it's impossible for them to actually know what a woman feels like, I'm sceptical, I'm afraid. I should imagine there is some kind of disassociation going on, at the same time though.

The point is, we're talking about changing laws and protocols. It can't be based on subjective feeling that is unverifiable.

I find it interesting though. Being forced to deconstruct what makes a woman, was a fairly eye-opening experience for me.

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 09:42

But how can you know if you actually 'feel like a woman' if you have never been one? How is the possible? I know that people with GD hate their sexed bodies, its why they have historically had surgery to change them.

But from a purely objective point of view, how can you feel like you are something you have no experience of being? How can you know what that feels like if you have never experienced it.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:47

Knowing you're a woman mentally, it's just an innate sense of "being." It just is. Yes,biologically I am too, I get where you're coming from saying though"but how do you know if you've never been one?" -
if others are saying it, not just me, like as was demonstrated upthread, is it not possible that there might be more out there we're not fully aware of yet?
It's not a jump to think that some just "are."

Louislovesmud · 12/10/2018 09:47

The point is, we're talking about changing laws and protocols. It can't be based on subjective feeling that is unverifiable.

This is where we agree. This is where I'm astounded that there isn't more open dialogue about what changes are proposed. The current laws mean that someone like Karen White has been able to prey on vulnerable women, and that's not good enough.

I'm not in the business of changing laws, but cannot understand why this is being done with such poor consultantation and communication.

Datun · 12/10/2018 09:47

Elephantinacravat

By the way, these sorts of what makes woman threads come up frequently in FWR, if you're interested. 😀

Earlywalker · 12/10/2018 09:49

So my personal opinion is this - if you have a GRC under the current rules, you have lived as your gender for more than 2 years and been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Therefore, if you hold a GRC You should be allowed to be treated as your ‘new’ gender. To me, I would have no problem with them using woman’s facilities or men’s facilities based on their new sex.
I think if you do not hold a GRC under these laws you should use your biological facilities.
For those whose mental health would be impacted by using their biological sex facilities but do not fall under the GRC criteria should be entitled to use a disabled toilet, and be presented with a radar key. Mental illness and mental health is a disability.
If Self ID comes into effect, I believe we need a fourth space.
Those that ‘pass’ will continue using the facilities as they have been for years without much judgement.
Me personally, at a nightclub I’ve been beaten up by a group of girls in the toilets. I’ve also been sexually assaulted by men. I think the issue around girls safety has far more issues that trans people.
I think if anyone who didn’t pass as a women came into the toilets, most would report it to the facilities manager and it would be dealt with accordingly.
Abusers are manipulative and in my opinion - smart. If they want access to woman there are others ways to go about it than to go through the process of declaring yourself a woman.
In terms of prisons, different kettle of fish. If you have a penis, you should not be sent to a woman’s prison. But I would agree they should have a separate wing for transwomen within a male prison to avoid targeting.
In my opinion, the key issue here is mental health. We need better help for those with gender dysphoria, suicide rates are high and they need support and guidance. But, we also need to move away from a ‘PC’ healthcare system and diagnosing anyone with gender dysphoria because they don’t live up to stereotypes. Because if someone is worried they have it (and let’s face it - with social media it’s easy to see how the idea would get in your head) they need the correct support, guidance and councilling to get to the root of it. And if it is genuine, they need support transitioning, if it is just not living up to stereotypes, they need help overcoming that.
Tarring all transpeople with the same brush is dangerous.

pancaketosser · 12/10/2018 09:51

I am a woman, I have XX chromosomes and was pregnant and/or lactating for 6 years.

I don't feel like a woman. Never have. If womanhood is a feeling, I'm not a woman.