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Original poster

To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

999 replies

abacucat · 11/10/2018 10:05

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

OP posts:
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7
VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:51

I agree with all of that, EarlyWalker. Very true about your last sentence too.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:53

I don't feel like a woman. Never have. If womanhood is a feeling, I'm not a woman.

I'm saying it can be both. I've given birth twice, but it's also an inside feeling for me.

pancaketosser · 12/10/2018 09:55

I don't have that inside feeling of being a woman. I genuinely don't understand what it could feel like.

Datun · 12/10/2018 09:56

I'm not in the business of changing laws, but cannot understand why this is being done with such poor consultantation and communication

There has been a concerted effort to shut women up. Frankly it's what has alerted a lot of mainstream media. The determined, organised campaign to stop women talking.

#NoDebate is no coincidence.

Millwall, whose strapline is everyone hates us and we don't care, said they had never seen anything like it when they experienced the full onslaught of transactivism to shut down the feminist meeting Re the GRA that was meant to be held at their club.

They caved. Extraordinary.

Venue after venue has been targeted. A man was convicted of hitting a pensioner because he objected to her convening to meet other women. Private prosecutions have been taken out. Police have been called.

It's a huge, frightening onslaught on women's rights.

Anyone who is getting a little fucked off with being told to shut up and sit down, can make their thoughts known to the government. The government finally, after months of lobbying, were persuaded to actually ask women what they thought about a law that allows paedophiles and rapists to be incarcerated in female prisons.

So they have sent out a public consultation. It's still fairly loaded, but at least you can complete it.

Anyone can. It takes about half an hour. My advice would be to complete in your own words. The consultation ends next Friday.
But if you don't have time, there is an option to complete it for you.

fairplayforwomen.com/

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 09:59

And that's where the problem lies,and we keep going round - as some (not saying you, by the way) are never going to accept transwomen as women and tar them all as the same no matter how much surgery they have had or how much they "pass."
As they believe there's no such thing as feeling like a woman too.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 10:00

Tell us what feeling like a woman feels like.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:00

That was to pancake btw, cross posted with another poster that wasn't there when I pressed send.

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 10:01

What is that common innate sense of being a woman, that all women share, that is in addition to material experience of having a female body?

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:02

There has been a concerted effort to shut women up. Frankly it's what has alerted a lot of mainstream media. The determined, organised campaign to stop women talking.

Women are doing a damn fine job of trying to shut other women up too on here with different viewpoints to the accepted as well.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:03

I've already answered, multiple times. However many times it's asked or phrased. It's a circular argument.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 10:09

Yes you're right Verbeena your argument is circular and founded in your own world view. It's like a religious experience of faith. That's fine, obviously, we all have beliefs. I'm certainly no exception.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 10:10

I don't expect public policy decisions to be made according to my own personal faith based beliefs though.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:15

You only accept answers if they're ones you want to hear.
It getting asked again and again "So what is it?" is pointless. As you don't want to know, or can't see.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:17

The bit you picked out, I see that you've glossed over that I said it's been answered. Several times. By more than one person. Including me.
Instead zoning in yes it is circular. So why keep asking the same damn question over and over and over even though you're all getting answers?
Utter blindness or shut off mindset, must be.

Earlywalker · 12/10/2018 10:19

I’m interested in all of your opinions on what the answer to facilities etc is? Is there a thread someone could point me in the right direction? I assume the FWR board would have lots of posts on how to combat the issues rather than just shouting loudly about them?

No ones commented on my post about what I believe should happen, I’m hearing lots of ‘but what is a women’ but haven’t actually seen your suggestions as to the best way for this to all work...

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:20

I’m hearing lots of ‘but what is a women’ but haven’t actually seen your suggestions as to the best way for this to all work...

Exactly, I'd like to know what the solution is too instead of dismissing them all.

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 10:22

I’m interested in all of your opinions on what the answer to facilities etc is?

I think a third space would be a good start, at least as a concept?

pancaketosser · 12/10/2018 10:22

Thanks for responding Verbeena, though I'm not sure which 'they' you mean when you say, "As they believe there's no such thing as feeling like a woman too." Sorry if I've misunderstood you.

I don't think transwomen are women. I think they are transwomen. Some of them have gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean I tar them all the same, just I don't think all women are the same, or all men, or all Southerners.

I don't believe that I have to believe something not true in order to be accepting of transpeople. Honestly, wear what you want, change your name if you want, if a man wants to wear makeup good on him. Let's be more accepting of mental health conditions, rather than saying "trans is not an illness" which, IMO, doesn't help with that.

I also feel uncomfortable with the idea that men are happier to push transwomen out of the group 'men' than include them as men. There seems to be an air of homophobia to it. As a feminist, I disagree that there's only one type of 'real man' and anyone who doesn't fit that is a woman. I knew boys at school who were gay and were often told they were girls. And not in a nice, inclusive way.

I'm rambling. TLDR - I'm all for trans people, but men aren't women. Gender roles and stereotypes affect men as well as women - I prefer the idea of getting rid of the boxes rather than trying to squeeze ourselves into the other box.

I will ponder more on what it means to feel like a woman.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:23

That's where the conflict arises. As a third space is othering transwomen and keeping them all away as a group, and not everyone wants a part of that.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:24

That was to elephant, cross posted with pancake there.

Elephantinacravat · 12/10/2018 10:27

That's where the conflict arises. As a third space is othering transwomen and keeping them all away as a group, and not everyone wants a part of that.

Well yes. But women's spaces are women's spaces. And if some women are saying 'no' to men being in their space on the basis that they say they are women, then that has to be respected.

You say it 'others' transwomen. But on the most basic level, transwomen are other. It's why they have the prefix of 'trans' : otherwise they would just be known as 'women'.

FissionChips · 12/10/2018 10:28

If transwomen and some women share an inner feeling of womanness but not all women do have that feeling (seems the majority don’t when they actually think about it) then how do we know that feeling is the feeling of “womanness”? Confused

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 10:29

So we should never accept them as women, regardless of their journey on transitioning and how far along they are? Just say go over there to your space, you're not one of us?
Not everyone thinks like that.

Earlywalker · 12/10/2018 10:30

I think a third space would be a good start, at least as a concept?

Thank you for answering, Elephant. Who would you suggest uses this ‘third space’ anyone that was born male or anyone that doesn’t have a GRC under the current rules? Anyone still having their biological genitalia? Just interested in your criteria for this third space.

Louislovesmud · 12/10/2018 10:31

What is that common innate sense of being a woman, that all women share, that is in addition to material experience of having a female body?

See, my main contention is that there isn't one bit. That instead of all being women on the basis of falling into one set bucket we identify as such through aligning over a number of things that society has declared under the "woman" bracket but that those elements and how many you "tick" will differ from person to person because we are of course individuals. It also includes things that I know I am NOT. I'd also stress that I can't say what feeling all women share because I'm not all women, and have only my own experiences to base it on and those experiences of family and friends that have been shared with me.

What I'd hope that at least some will recognise from my post is that we can disagree on the female/woman/transwoman piece while still all agreeing that we need more open, tolerant and inclusive debate to ensure concerns are heard, vulnerable people are safeguarded and all of our rights are respected in light of the any policy changes.