To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

JAPAB

The precedent has already been set. Sounds like a good plan of action.
Of course, those who are already 'woke' to self-identity will recognise the validity of the position without much of a fight.

I'd be interested to hear the reasons why anyone would oppose.

Also, sometimes just pressing on with it is better than waiting. Seems to work well in other quarters.

The precedent has already been set.

It has? Well if they do change "trans" to no longer mean 'men with an XX or women with an XY', yet there remain valid reasons for why those positions be reserved for 'men with an XX or women with an XY', then one would hope that they change the names of those positions so they are no longer called "trans" positions.

I mean, we could basically change all names for identity to whatever the person says they are.

So say you're a woman = you're a woman.
Say you're a man = you're a man.
Say you're a trans-woman = you're a trans-woman.

If we don't actually need any meanings for identity beyond what we feel in our mind, then we might as well make it consistent.

The whole gender thing has become silly.
I think we should have a choice...men's loos, women's loos and unisex...not unisex or nothing.

PatriciaBateman on the other hand, if there is no demand for it, why does a meaning have to change?

If, for example, everyone would accept that 'a Scottish person is someone who was born in Scotland' then why change it to refer to a feeling just for the sake of it.

Of course in this case plenty of people who ID as Scottish but were not born there would object, and we know how people ID can be terribly important to them.

But if there was no demand why do it for the sake of it. There is no great clamour to change the meaning of trans.

Equally, I can't imagine why there would be any real opposition amongst supporters of self-identity to my wishing to self-identify as trans.

If that's how I feel inside, then why would anyone wish to tell me I can't identify as such?

PatriciaBateman even if they believed you were being genuine (as opposed to being Devil's Advocate) you are just one person. Why would people upset the apple cart for one person who they are not even going to believe is being serious?

Do you think they would have bothered changing the laws on marriage if there had only ever been one pair of homosexuals in history who wanted it?

Changing meanings and ways of thinking takes effort. One thing when you have a large clamour from people you believe are sincere. Another thing when it is a one-off person taking the mick :)

'Taking the mick' is quite a dismissive and presumptive stance to take about someone else's identity expression.

I don't think many forward-thinking people believe that smaller numbers should be utterly trampled over due to their smallness, especially when easily accomodated.

However, as I'm sure you have ascertained, my point is that on the surface it looks as though there should be no opposition. Self-identity? All-inclusive? You are who you say you are, etc.

We both know women's self-identity as trans-women would be vehemently opposed by those who understood the implications (even if large numbers were inifinitely sincere). I wonder how much people have thought about the reasons why.

JAPAB darling you're wrong. All Patricia needs to do is say the magic words "non binary", "genderqueer" or "genderfluid". Cf Phil/Pips Bunce. The Stonewall umbrella is a gift to chancers. HTH.

Not implying your self identity isn't real of course, Patricia

M3lon

I am enjoying your posts

interesting

It has? Well if they do change "trans" to no longer mean 'men with an XX or women with an XY', yet there remain valid reasons for why those positions be reserved for 'men with an XX or women with an XY', then one would hope that they change the names of those positions so they are no longer called "trans" positions.

Perhaps you should apply for an advisory role at Stonewall to advance that change. Your understanding is outdated.

I think there is genuine validity to the statement 'all women are transwomen'.

It speaks to what Datun is saying about gender stereotyping. We are all who we are inside, but then we have this forced identity as 'feminine' forced on us by the outside world.

When I'm in a meeting and I have to make my point in a feminine way so that men around the table don't feel threatened I am performing a feminine persona that doesn't in fact match with my biological sex (which in no way specifies my need to be quiet, polite, nice, nurturing outside of societal constructs). I think that clearly fits within the definition of identifying as trans.

I'm not even joking...

Japab in other words I am adding my voice to pats because I genuinely feel there is a difference between my sex and the gender identity I experience as a result of gender stereotyping in society.

Sorry, but Verbeena's argument that

'Transwomen are women and this totally stands up as an objective, irrefutable, logical assertion upon which law and policy should be made, because I feel like a woman on this inside, but I can't tell you how I feel like a woman, but that is all the argument I have'

And then her subsequently being upset because people say that is woolly and vague and ask some clarification questions, which obviously means they are 'not listening' and they are 'twisting' and therefore there is no point in engaging further because she has 'given her argument' and people aren't satisfied with it

Is just absolute GOLD!

Keep going Verbeena, keep showing everyone what you are!

"darling you're wrong" to a poster disagreeing? I see there was some discussion over night and now we're back to patronising posters who give the "wrong" answer.
Keep going, show what you are? You're all doing sooooo fine at that yourself.

It's like a little dismissive head pat. With a faux darling thrown in.
Somebody ticked off patronising on their bingo card earlier.
It's not wrong. It's like a script.

If you had any intention of listening to people, not just me, the virtual head pats, dismissing of other views and personal insults to belittle just wouldn't be happening, would it?
Then you wonder why people disengage,. Because as I said earlier, the second they do or try to, the belittling crap and insults starts up again as "darling it's the wrong answer".

M3lon You make a really good point, though I know my interpretation of it probably isn't what you were driving at. For me, in terms of what makes me "feel like a woman" a large part of that is tied up in the way that gender is forcefully constructed in society, which stereotype I most commonly identify with and the gender role I most often feel comfortable "playing". It's not limited to this for me, but that's some of the contributing factors.

It goes further than that. The best way I have of demonstrating the difference between female and woman for myself is that if I were tested tomorrow and found to have XY chromosomes I'd be forced to accept I'm not female, but I would still feel that I am a woman because that identity is based on different criteria.

I share the concerns about safeguarding, safe spaces, ensuring other vulnerable groups rights are not eroded, data gathering in terms of self ID. I'm absolutely concerned about predators taking advantage of the changes. I don't think there's anywhere near enough clarity from the government in terms of what their plans are. I'm sick of seeing personal attacks and blatant misrepresentation of others views from both positions

BUT

I still feel that what makes me say I am female is different from why I describe myself as a woman

It goes further than that. The best way I have of demonstrating the difference between female and woman for myself is that if I were tested tomorrow and found to have XY chromosomes I'd be forced to accept I'm not female, but I would still feel that I am a woman because that identity is based on different criteria

That's kind of how it is for me too, it's a mental and a physical one too.
Two different things in play. It's never going to be the "right" answer though however much we try.

Yeah, most people on FWR know JAPAB of old. It was meant to be patronising.

It goes further than that. The best way I have of demonstrating the difference between female and woman for myself is that if I were tested tomorrow and found to have XY chromosomes I'd be forced to accept I'm not female, but I would still feel that I am a woman because that identity is based on different criteria

But presumably you have a female body? That is how you know you are a woman and that is how everyone around you knows you are a woman. My identity as a woman comes from the material reality of having a female body. That is how I know I am a woman.

if I were tested tomorrow and found to have XY chromosomes I'd be forced to accept I'm not female, but I would still feel that I am a woman because that identity is based on different criteria

What criteria is that?

It was meant to be patronising? Nuff said. Keep going, show what you are? As I said, all doing a blinding job of that yourselves.