To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

an event for Transgender Remembrance Day on 20 November

WTF? Who is this for? How many transgender soldiers were there over the past 100 years? Or will the TRAs be retro-transing gay and GNC soldiers?

I think it's getting there. Ime people still think a sex change is required and you can see the penny dropping when they realise all that's required is a feeling. Whatever that is.

I think it's great that workplaces are supporting trans identified individuals. Aunt besties example seems massive overkill though and will likely have the opposite effect sadly. Always happens when company's go way overboard with initiatives.

I am uncomfortable with being called anti trans or the pro Self ID movement lobby "transgenderism", and hope and assume this is just a clumsy shortcut phrase .I support women's rights and am against TRAs and the Self ID changes. While there are welcome signs of more understanding towards women's concerns I think most of the battle is already lost.

crosstalk
I'm confused how the movement to womxn has got so far so quickly and why there isn't a similar move to mxn - are tg women simply less organised and less frightening to 49% of the pop that's men? Genuinely interested to know.
Imo, it's a mixture of male socialisation meaning that transwomen push themselves forward more than transmen, and of society in general favouring male perspectives more than females', regardless of gender.
I see this in online trans communities too - transwomen are considered the default person in their communities, transwomen dominate the spaces that aren't specifically for transmen, and transwomen often silence and shut down transmen who point this out by saying transmen have male privilege and should thus shut up.

@Scrumplestiltskin yes - we’ve had lunchtime seminars on the following topics in the last year:

Coming out as gay at work
Bi-erasure
Maternity rights
Paternity leave update
Unconscious bias in the workplace
Mental health awareness (had a visit from Mind, they did a half day workshop in a few locations)
Flexible working rights
Improving heart health
Disability day of action

There are probably more that I have forgotten. I don’t know how normal it is but we are a large, international firm and we have a lot of emphasis placed on this kind of pastoral care. My previous firm was smaller but had similar initiatives.

@HolesinTheSoles I don’t think it’s a bad thing, I think it’s bloody wonderful! Sorry, should have made that clear!

Shouldnt this be in FWR

No HTH

Adding my voice to that.

an event for Transgender Remembrance Day on 20 November WTF? Who is this for? How many transgender soldiers were there over the past 100 years? Or will the TRAs be retro-transing gay and GNC soldiers?

Sorry, my mistake - it’s transgender day of remembrance, not Remembrance Day. I don’t know the answers to your question about soldiers but the day of remembrance isn’t connected to veterans or war.

It’s a day to memorialize those who have been murdered due to transphobia. It was founded in 1999 to memorialize the murder of trans woman Rita Hester. It includes a reading of all who lost their lives in the previous year and other events like candlelit vigils etc. It is also now used as a way to advance intersectional approaches to trans activism, in recognition of the fact that there are disproportionate instances of violence against trans women of colour and particularly black trans women.

It’s a day to memorialize those who have been murdered due to transphobia.

What's the difference between a transwoman or transman who was murdered because of transphobia and one whose murder had nothing to with them being trans and was in fact motivated by other reasons? Or are we just assuming that all transgender people who were murdered was a result of transphobia? Because that's a very slippery slope to go down.

As a side note you do realise that transgender people are no more likely to be murdered than anyone else? In fact in the UK there are more transgenders who have murdered people themselves than there are transgenders who have been murdered.

It is also now used as a way to advance intersectional approaches to trans activism, in recognition of the fact that there are disproportionate instances of violence against trans women of colour and particularly black trans women.

So racism then.

*I am happy for society to support people of all kinds who need support. I have no issue with people presenting in whatever way they are most comfortable.

I'm not happy for women's awards to go to people who have not lived their life as women, and I am not happy for statistics to be skewed by misgendering people. I am not happy for the word woman to be transphobic or for the definition of woman to be transphobic.*

I think this is where I am.

I genuinely don't care what you wear but just wearing a dress or lipstick doesn't make you a woman in my eyes.

I am unsure why the push now is to say that anyone who thinks they are a woman is one. It kind of makes the word woman meaningless.

If I say the definition of a scrumple is anyone who feels they are a scrumple that brings us no closer to actually defining what a scrumple is.

I cannot understand why trans people cannot be celebrating the fact that they are trans. They are, they always will be. So it seems really odd that we are all supposed to pretend that they are not. It makes my head go fuzzy to be honest. If I am talking to the TW at our work my head is going "man" but I am supposed to be saying "she". It makes me feel ill. If I could say "he" I think I would be a lot more likely to relax around them, but I am always stressing that I am going to say the wrong thing. So I try to avoid if possible.

If trans women are women and trans men are men, why is there a transgender rememberance day?

@ADastardlyThing

That is an excellent point.

If transmen are men and transwomen are women then they would just be men and women who have murdered. There would be no need for the trans acknowledgment.

What's the difference between a transwoman or transman who was murdered because of transphobia and one whose murder had nothing to with them being trans and was in fact motivated by other reasons?

How about you do some digging and make sure they aren’t accidentally honouring murder victims who weren’t killed for the right reasons? And while you’re at it you can be sure to check that the 144 women killed by men in 2017 who we honour and mourn were actually killed due to violence against women and not some other, unrelated cause because god forbid we honour and mourn someone you don’t consider to deserve it.

So racism then.

Yes. Due to racism, black trans women face disproportionate levels of violence in comparison to white trans women. What’s your point?

As a side note you do realise that transgender people are no more likely to be murdered than anyone else? In fact in the UK there are more transgenders who have murdered people themselves than there are transgenders who have been murdered.

Not factually accurate or supported by statistics.

^been murdered that should say.

If trans women are women and trans men are men, why is there a transgender rememberance day?

To memorialize people murdered due to transphobia. What’s complicated here?

I have to ask those of you spitting fire about transgender murder victims - do you feel good about yourselves? Does ripping into an event which honours the memory of innocent people who were murdered make you feel like a good person? Is this how you truly consider decent people to behave?

"And while you’re at it you can be sure to check that the 144 women killed by men in 2017 who we honour and mourn were actually killed due to violence against women and not some other, unrelated cause "

I'm pretty sure killing is fairly violent? I didn't see "husband accidentally left banana skin on floor" on the list anyway

auntbeastie more murderers than murdered. How does that make you feel? Good?
We see you.

How about you do some digging and make sure they aren’t accidentally honouring murder victims who weren’t killed for the right reasons? And while you’re at it you can be sure to check that the 144 women killed by men in 2017 who we honour and mourn were actually killed due to violence against women and not some other, unrelated cause because god forbid we honour and mourn someone you don’t consider to deserve it.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't mourn these people or that they don't deserve to remembered.

However it is a slippery slope to go down to start assuming that all trans people who were murdered were so as a result of transphobia. Of course those who weren't murdered as a result of transphobia are no less important than those who were. It is however very misleading and borderline dangerous to take all of them and go "look at all this transphobia" without looking at each case individually.

Yes. Due to racism, black trans women face disproportionate levels of violence in comparison to white trans women. What’s your point?

How is that different to black people of any group having it worse due to racism?

Not factually accurate or supported by statistics.

How many transgender murderers there are verses how many have been murdered is all public information readily available. It's hardly a secret and you can easily google it if you want to.

"To memorialize people murdered due to transphobia. What’s complicated here?"

What's complicated is we are told that trans women are women (and transmen are men), so surely being called transgender is insulting?

You might want to think im spitting fire and insulting it if it helps you to avoid the question btw, that's absolutely fine :) go on twitter and call some of the TRA on there transgender and watch them tell you to die in in a fire because they have always been women.

So yes, it is complicated tbh!

more murderers than murdered

Do you think if you repeat your lies enough they become fact?

Do you see how disingenuous you are, claiming there are more trans murderers than victims and in the same breath trying to deny that the murder of trans people is due to them being trans? What a great trick.

Tell me again - do you feel good about yourself as you complain about a remembrance service for murder victims? Would you feel the same if a man complained about a service on International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women because maybe some of those women’s murders didn’t have anything to do with them being women? Is that the company you want to keep?

The very worst of mumsnet is here on this thread. The very worst. I’m out. Have fun patting each other on the back for criticising a remembrance service for murder victims. I’m sure you all feel real good about that.

Mask starting to slip there aunt

Perhaps a touch more statistical education would help you there bro, the truth is all out there, no matter what you choose to believe. Transwomen are safer than any other demographic. Amazing really given how many are driven to suicide by people speaking the truth.

No one has criticized it at all, I certainly haven't, I asked a valid question but as I say I get 100% that it's an awkward one for you to answer. Apologies if I made you feel uncomfortable.

To memorialize people murdered due to transphobia. What’s complicated here?

It's complicated because we're constantly being told that transwomen are women and transmen are men and that it's highly transphobic to suggest otherwise.

Whenever anyone dares to suggest that transwomen and women are different and need different rights and protections, they are jumped on and labelled a bigot and a TERF..,.because you know "transwomen are women!".

Whenever anyone dares to suggest that transwomen shouldn't be taking up places in women's sports, scholarships, changing rooms, refuges, etc they are torn a new arsehole for being a so-called TERF and again have the whole "transwomen are women!" thing thrown at them again. And of course #nodebate.

Yet in the same breath these people can also turn around and hold a day to remember all the transgender people who have been murdered and mourn for them. At the same time they are being completely oblivious to the fact that the perceived need for such a day only proves that they don't really believe transwomen are women and transmen are men. If they did believe these things then they wouldn't need to have this day in the first place because it would simply be men and women who have been murdered rather than transmen and transwomen.

It's complicated because the trans rights movement is so inconsistent. If we only talk about women then we are bigoted TERFs. If we talk about transwomen then we are also bigoted TERFs if we dare to do anything that 'others' them in anyway.