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Original poster

To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

999 replies

abacucat · 11/10/2018 10:05

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

OP posts:
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7
VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 02:00

Gawd, round and round and round and twisty twisty. It's ridiculous. You know you've had answers repeatedly,stop pretending you haven't.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 02:01

Can you not define what woman feelings you have?

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:02

Softday

Beautiful and touching post.

The conflict ("male > female") reminds me of that dragon with the many heads, all of which regenerate. Conquer one and another one pops up.

However, two can play at that. Wink

Let the weary have rest.

Datun · 12/10/2018 02:02

If a woman is anyone who self-identifies as a woman, then surely a trans-woman is anyone who self-identifies as a trans-woman?

I missed this completely!

😀

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 02:03

I've never yet had a response. The answer is I just know, I just am. With every single world in the English language at their disposal, they can't describe it.

I feel like that.As an actual biological woman. Feel like a woman mentally and physically. I have actually said on past threads when asked to explain (like on here) I just am. You can't describe, it's not that easy.
If transwomen are saying the same as me, surely that means there is more out there than just having the physical bits?
I'm a woman mindfully too.

SmallButFierce · 12/10/2018 02:03

So M3lon, do you mean like your mental representation of your body/body image? See I’d probably still interpret that as being based on the physical reality of being a woman.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 02:03

Goodness it's 2am! Going to have to turn in. The thread might fill up in the meantime otherwise I'll maybe see you all in 5 to 6 hours time.

M3lon · 12/10/2018 02:04

datun I agree - thinking you are fat does not mean you are fat. Thinking your body is disabled doesn't mean it is, and thinking you are female doesn't mean you are.

But that doesn't mean that the the phrase 'identify as female' is meaningless. It just means that self identity doesn't always match reality.

I have a very clear mental picture of who I am. It doesn't reflect reality in all sorts of ways, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that I can't describe it. I could give you every element of my internally stored self-identity. I'm not asking you to validate that identity as real, just to validate its existence as a state of mind.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 02:05

If some refuse to accept that you can only ever be a woman if you have the biological bits but flat out refuse to accept anything else, where does that go apart from circular round and round?

M3lon · 12/10/2018 02:10

small yes, I mean my internally stored self image.

When I look in the mirror I'm often really struck by the disconnect between reality and my stored self image. It doesn't feel like a big step to imagine someone could have a self image that is the opposite gender to their body.

I've honestly had dreams where I have had a penis, felt its weight, the way it contacts my thigh, I've used it to pee etc. Now for all I know the things I felt were a million miles from the real sensations a man has grown up with, but for that period of (unconcious ) time I was 'identifying as male', no matter how inaccurately. When I woke up I felt weird for a good couple of hours.

Again, this doesn't make me male, not at all - and of course my experience was unlikely to be authentically male. But I definitely believe it fits the definition of 'identifying as male'.

M3lon · 12/10/2018 02:12

arse - I have to be up early so I must to bed. Hopefully not to dream of being a man. It was awful.

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:14

There are lots of things I can only ever be because I have the biological bits that define the 'thing'.

I will only ever be Caucasian for example.

If I don't feel inside like I am, does it mean I'm not?

M3lon · 12/10/2018 02:14

I will certainly take away the idea that if your genitals aren't important to the way you identify in the GR manner of speaking then I can identify as a transwoman. That is food for thought indeed.

Datun · 12/10/2018 02:16

M3lon

It's actually quite interesting, to me, what part of being a woman would occupy a man. I'm not talking about AGP individuals, we all know what parts. I'm talking about genuine gender dysphoria suffers.

And I believe self analysis would make a lot of difference. Plus being able to empathise with others, and see other peoples points of view. Something that seems a bit lacking in gender dysphoria sufferers.

Anecdotally, men who suffer from gender dysphoria will have one or both parents who stick rigidly to gender norms and find an effeminate son offensive. Doing 'being a man' all wrong.

It's not difficult to imagine how it plays out.

So whilst I can accept that a female identity is a real thing, to them. To me, it's got nothing to do with actually being female.

And, of course, what makes it so much worse is the inherent power dynamic between men and women. Women are still often considered lesser than. Their biology is exploited, controlled and undervalued. By a patriarchal society.

The very essence of being a woman is something a man will never experience. And it gives me a mindfuck headache to imagine any circumstances under which I should defer to his opinion about it.

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:16

M3Ion I think the trans-women population is perhaps higher on MN than previously thought.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 02:17

When I look in the mirror, I see me. At peace with me. No disconnect. To not match up - it's not something I've experienced. Which is why I think there could be more out there. If people are saying, not just me, they can't describe, they just are, do we dismiss them all?

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:24

You can disagree without dismissing, or even being unkind (sometimes it is kinder).

Phrasing it as dismissing can make it seem like it is always a calloused, wrong thing to disagree with someone's interpretation of reality.

Would you think it right to always agree with someone's self-assessment of their body for example?

tillytrotter1 · 12/10/2018 02:24

Only having skimmed the first page, why is it all about women and their role, don't men have one too?

M3lon · 12/10/2018 02:25

datun I don't disagree at all with your last post. I'm sure spending your childhood being told the only way your behaviour would be acceptable is if you were female would be a fine way to cause a male child to develop an internal image of themselves as female. That way they can be acceptable, they are valued, by themselves if not by their parents.

But if that is the case it should be treatable. Undoing such childhood lessons is incredibly difficult but not impossible.

Either way I feel you are being a touch harsh with people who think its possible for your mental self image to be a different gender to your physical body! That isn't the issue - the issue is when people then insist their mental image is right and reality is wrong....especially when the new reality includes 'anyone who likes pink must be female'.

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:33

tillytrotter1

A very informative article on a special role for men.

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:34

Sorry, link didn't work as had your name copied to reply to!

article link again

Datun · 12/10/2018 02:37

Either way I feel you are being a touch harsh with people who think its possible for your mental self image to be a different gender to your physical body!

Gender, yes. Definitely. Sex, no. I'm not without empathy. I just think it needs unpicking.

And yes, if you speak to detransitioners, it's quite clear that is the stereotypes that are doing all the work. Which probably wouldn't matter, if it wasn't always women who were more harmed by them.

I think it probably is treatable. But very difficult. We receive so many gendered messages it would be hard to reverse the process.

Did you ever see that BBC programme no more girls and boys? It was very interesting. At the age of seven, the only thing the girls thought they could do better than the boys was look pretty and the only emotion the boys could express was anger.

The fascinating part was the adults swearing blind that they treated the kids exactly the same. And being shocked when shown film of themselves revealing their bias.

All the tiny, subliminal ways that we tell our kids how to view themselves.

JAPAB · 12/10/2018 02:49

If a woman is anyone who self-identifies as a woman, then surely a trans-woman is anyone who self-identifies as a trans-woman?

I think that is a non-sequitur. In order for that to follow the "trans" part would also need to be a self-IDed concept.

Think of nationality for example. That ultimately boils down to self-ID, but that doesn't mean that being a millionaire Scot is. The "millionaire" part makes it overall not self-IDed.

PatriciaBateman · 12/10/2018 02:54

JAPAB

"In order for that to follow the "trans" part would also need to be a self-IDed concept".

Ok. Self-IDed trans it is.

JAPAB · 12/10/2018 03:06

PatriciaBateman but you can't just decide that on your own. Find some like-minded friends, spend a few years campaigning, and eventually trans might become a matter of self-ID. Until then, it doesn't refer to someone in your situation.

So you'll have to wait before you can "apply for positions set aside for trans-women".