To just leave, despite what emergency services say!

[beckysamantha91]

Long time lurker, first time poster, however - I'm watching a documentary on Grenfell, everyone who got told to stay to basically died and everyone who ignored it and left survived. It was exactly the same for the 2nd tower in 9/11 - they were all told to stay and those who did ended up dying.

Is it just me who thinks if I am ever in a dangerous situation and told to stay, I'm better off taking my family and running?

I also understand that the emergency service s are doing the best they can, but I still think in those situations where communication (and knowledge) is limited but critical, you're better off taking your chances?

Do you live in a tower block, OP?

Difficult to know isn't it? I can understand you saying this and I can't understand the thinking behind telling people to stay put in a burning building, but I'm not a safety expert.

To make a judgement you would have to know whether there were lots of examples of times when people were told to stay put in a burning building and they were ok.

I agree. Always lecturing DD's. Don't wait to be told. Get the hell out. I find myself looking and thinking about escape routes sometimes too.

No I don't live in a tower block and never have, but something since September 11 (I happened to have a family member there and the only reason they got out was because they ignored advice - their entire floor who stayed [as was the instruction] died, has always made me nervous about following what people say in unpredictable situations.

For example, if there was a car crash on the motorway I would be happy to follow the police's advice as they know what to do- but a burning multi-storey building or terrorist attack, both luckily and sadly (ie there is no real working protocol) who's to say they are right?

My friend's husband is a firefighter. He says the reason you should stay put is that you are more protected from the fire in the flat and emergency services will be able to locate you better. However, with Grenfell they hadn't been able to anti ipate how deadly the cladding was and the phones were overwhelmed on the evening of the fire. Both cases were very exceptional. However, I know what you mean instinct would be to leg it. Our fire alarm at work has a system to release people a floor at a time but our floor seemed to take ages once....I was out of there...!

Simply put, people panic. Having loads of panicking people forcing themselves down a narrow staircase is a recipe for disaster.

Theoretically, smoke/fire in a flat should not be able to spread outside that flat for at least 60 minutes, which would normally be sufficient time for it to be contained by frs.

Unfortunately, there were multiple deficiencies in how the building had been refurbished/maintained, which meant that the fire could spread a lot quicker.

Grenfell and 9/11 were horrific tragedies. As Dogstar says - in the event of a fire in a flat within a large block it should be contained within the property. It was the cladding at Grenfell that caused the fire to wrap and spread around the building.

I've been called to many flat fires (I'm a Housing officer) and the only people who have ever been hurt (or killed) are those that live in the property where the fire started and those who didn't 'Stay Put' when they heard the fire alarm.

But do you not therefore think @Greatorb that even though mass panic creates a problem, it's better to chance it and get crushed, rather than to stay and risk it? (Genuine question)!

An example where that wouldn't have worked is Hillsborough - but it's a really tricky one and I still think I would err on the side of run as appose to caution

It's one of those collective action problems though, isn't it? If everyone had tried to leave Grenfell then the stairs would have been totally clogged (even more so). Hardly anyone would have made it out, and the emergency services wouldn't have been able to get in. If all your relative's floor had decided to evacuate with your relative on 9/11, then your relative may not have survived.

I always thought towerblocks were designed to contain fires, so by leaving (and opening foredoora into stairwells etc) you create paths for the fire to spread to other floors.

Given the number of fires that must happen in Tower blocks, versus the number of 'Grenfells' that have happened, it seems safer to follow the advice.

Err, doors, not quite sure what happened with the autocorrect

I think it's such a tricky one.

Honestly though I'm watching this documentary and it's just awful.

Makes you very grateful for the people you have!

its easy to make the right decision isn't it, with hindsight.

It's not 'stay and risk it' in the vast majority of situations. You're creating a false premise.

You don't hear about all the times no-one dies as a result of good fire procedures. One of my clients is a mgt co for a block of flats. They had a fire about a month ago. It was contained in the flat where it started, no-one was evacuated, no-one was injured. It didn't make the news.

If I’d been in the World Trade Centre or Grenfell and couldn’t easily get down, my instinct might well have been to go up, in the hope that helicopters might be able to evacuate from the roof.
As far as I know no one was evacuated by helicopter so that wouldn’t have been a good plan.
We live near a big shopping mall and it does cross my mind that it could be bombed or some lunatics with guns target it one day, and what would we do, run or hide? So hard to advise the kids when you don’t know yourself.

I'd chance it. They don't want to cause panic because they want to save as many lives as possible. Like in school, where the kids line up during a fire drill, and file out calmly. This way we get them all out safely without a crush. Seems fine, and always works fine during a drill, or on those rare occasions that there's been a small contained fire in the kitchens.

But in the event of a real emergency? With smoke, and flames, and exits blocked etc? As a teacher, I'd be encouraging my class to climb over things, run as quickly as possible, I'd be passing them out of windows if necessary! In reality I think you have to trust your instincts and get yourself and those you're responsible for out as quickly as possible.

Emergency services are just people, making difficult decisions based on the training they've had. I absolutely trust that they have our best interests at heart and will be trying to save people the best way they know how, but I wouldn't put my trust in them over and above my own instincts.

@Flyingpompom i think you've articulated my thoughts much better than I've managed!

I'd be hot footing it outside tbh

Like the previous poster I advise my DC to get out. I prefer to be pro-active

those who didn't 'Stay Put' when they heard the fire alarm.

That cant surely be the advice when you hear a fire alarm??
I remember TV ads when I was a child saying “get out, call 999” it was emphasised that the first thing you do is get out.

No. I'd follow the advice of those who have expertise in dealing with a situation like that.

Opening up doorways is literally fanning the flames, adding in more sources of oxygen and encouraging the spread of fire. The amount of people escaping via a single staircase would be a recipe for disaster in itself too. You wouldn't be able to see as far as your hand in front of you.

Why do people always think they know better?

If I was in a building, stadium, airport, or other 'contained space' and the emergency was inside where I was, I think I'd probably try to get out.

But if I was in a place where the threat was outside, like a tornado or hurricane warning, a forest fire, or an active shooter and emergency services told me to stay put I'd be more tempted to listen to them, figuring they knew more about the condition of the roads/routes out of the area or in the case of a shooter, where he/she was.

Any way you look at it, it's a crap shoot.

IStandWithPosie If the fire is in your flat, then you obviously get out and raise the alarm. If you hear the fire alarm, you Stay Put and ring the Fire Service (unless the alarm is linked to an Operations Centre or similar) then wait for them to tell you what to do.

If you decide to stay inside and be located and rescued you are safe.
If you decide to stay inside and not be located or rescued you die.
If you choose to leave and get to safety. You live.
If you choose to leave and don't make it to safety. You die.

There's literally 4 options it's a 50/50 chance with any of them so it's what you decide to do at the time really. I don't think anyone could make that decision unless they were in that situation.

flyingpompom, getting the kids to leave calmly isn't just about avoiding crushes or panic - it's also quicker if everyone leaves in an orderly fashion. The vast majority of places have a second way out if the first becomes blocked for any reason, so always check you know where your second exit is.

With fires in general, the absolute best thing you can do is check that your smoke alarm works. Grenfell was truly exceptional - it really is rare to die in a fire if you have a working smoke alarm. With tower blocks, I'd stick with the 'stay in place' advice unless there was evidence of the fire spreading. The second it moves out of the original flat then I'd get out.

Other general fire tips - make sure you can open your front door easily, and that the keys for windows are to hand. Keep doors shut to reduce the likelihood of fire spread (and don't be the idiot who disconnects self-closing devices).