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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To just leave, despite what emergency services say!

186 replies

beckysamantha91 · 09/10/2018 22:58

Long time lurker, first time poster, however - I'm watching a documentary on Grenfell, everyone who got told to stay to basically died and everyone who ignored it and left survived. It was exactly the same for the 2nd tower in 9/11 - they were all told to stay and those who did ended up dying.

Is it just me who thinks if I am ever in a dangerous situation and told to stay, I'm better off taking my family and running?

I also understand that the emergency service s are doing the best they can, but I still think in those situations where communication (and knowledge) is limited but critical, you're better off taking your chances?

OP posts:
CoolCarrie · 10/10/2018 19:54

My late father was a auxiliary fire man and he always said to us Get Out and Stay Out, don’t ever go back and never ever use the lifts. After 9/ 11 people should have realised that staying put in this situation is wrong, that said the people were given terrible advice and paid with their lives. It was a tragic situation that was caused by the Kensington and Chelsea council incompetence.

AlphaBravo · 10/10/2018 20:01

As a former H&S inspector - Leave. If there is a clear, low smoke or no smoke access route. Every time. Unless you're in a purpose built fire locker with self contained life support systems, then you soak your cotton sheets, your clothes and shoes if you can, wrap up tight, and leave. As quickly as you can without running.

I actually left my career behind because of how 'jobs for the lads' it was and "but that will never happen" and "how can we do it the cheapest way possible"... when no mate, it will happen. Because that's why H&S regs fucking exist.

AlphaBravo · 10/10/2018 20:04

And the Fire Brigades advice to 'stay put' was based on outdated building information as they didn't know all the Asbestos had been stripped and cavities/flammable building materials used to fill the gaps.

If the Asbestos had been encapsulated and left where it was the fire would NOT have spread through the interior structures so far or so fast.

BertieBotts · 10/10/2018 20:07

Monkey it would also have been on general fire evacuation notices placed around the building (you might see them in public buildings saying things like "Go to car park B and phone 999")

Haworthia · 10/10/2018 20:22

As a previous poster has said, I don’t think you should underestimate how deadly human behaviour can be in mass panic situations. Add staircases to the mix and it’s even worse. For some reason, it brought the Bethnal Green WWII disaster to mind. It’s the worst civilian war incident, 173 people died.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/09/a795909.shtml

At 8.27pm the touch-paper was lit. A frightening roar went out as a nearby anti-aircraft battery fired its salvo of 60 rockets. The battery was new, with an unfamiliar sound. Apprehension turned to panic. As the crowd surged forward down the slippery steps a woman holding a small child fell near the bottom of the first staircase. A man tripped over her, and a tragic human domino effect had begun.
It is estimated that hundreds of people fell within just 15 seconds. Unaware of what was happening in front of them, people kept surging forward into the supposed safety of the shelter.
In this mass panic any rescue attempts were severely hampered. PC Thomas Penn, who was escorting his pregnant wife to the shelter, arrived on the scene as the disaster was unfolding. To assess the scale of the event he crawled over the massed bodies to the bottom of the 19 steps and found 200 people in a space the size of a small room. PC Penn climbed out again and sent a message for help, before returning down the steps to help extricate people from the tangle of limbs and torsos.

They only unveiled a memorial last December. Like Grenfell, things were hushed up and the wrong people were blamed, and the dead were also blamed for their behaviour.

anniehm · 10/10/2018 20:30

I know exactly what you mean. When we lived in the US we had a family emergency plan (major earthquake risk area plus volcano means most do) I had an emergency bag and everything (it doubled as camping supplies). Less organised now but I have always thought if things go pear-shaped I would hot foot it to my mums in the country, certainly would not wait for advice. I'm not worried particularly, I don't live in London or a big city, certainly not enough to have proper supplies but it lurks at the back of my mind

jennymor123 · 11/10/2018 09:28

Unfortunately, the issue of toxic fumes is being suppressed at the Inquiry. One of the reasons is the history of the flame retardant industry funding fire sector officials to support their products. This led to those officials blocking changes 4 years ago to the UK's furniture flammability regulations. Furniture gives off huge amounts of toxic fumes like hydrogen cyanide when it burns (which is deadly and invisible/odourless). To make matters worse, the government itself had proven that the main ignition test in those regulations doesn't work in up to 90% of cases. Which means we're all sitting/sleeping on highly toxic furniture that isn't even going to protect us from fire.

Because these officials (one of them at least in the FBU) in effect consigned all of us and their own firefighters especially to continuing high levels of toxic fumes, they have been working hard to ensure all attention is on cladding and none on burning furniture.

EllenMP · 11/10/2018 17:47

For me, it was the building itself that left residents no viable choices. I don't mean the cladding, I mean the fact that there was only one staircase in the building. I come from NY where tall buildings have to have multiple exits and fire escapes, and I had no idea until Grenfell that it was legal here to build a 30 story building with only one way in or out. If there had been two stairwells one of them might have been sufficiently clear of smoke to evacuate residents safely. And the other could have been used by firefighters with breathing equipment going up rather than down. But instead all those poor people were trapped in a situation with no good options: stay and hope the fire is contained before it breaches your flat (certain death in this case) or chance the stairwell (and die of smoke inhalation halfway down.)

The danger in this case was also compounded by the absence of fire suppression capability, i.e. sprinklers. To build such a dangerous building and not put in sprinklers is UNFORGIVEABLE. And the fact that it was legal to do so shames everyone in government who knew that this was the practice and did nothing to change it. And the fact that this has not been fixed since then shames us all.

We desperately need to reform building codes so that buildings over five stories have at least two exit pathways and proper fire suppression systems in place. Firefighters on the scene at Grenfell did the best they could to handle an unprecedented and rapidly changing situation. Their efforts were doomed from the start, though, by the lax building standards we have allowed in slumlord towers like Grenfell.

LividAtDolphins · 11/10/2018 18:35

I guess the stories of people trying to escape fires and then dying of smoke inhalation in the stairwell (which presumably happens more often) just don't make the news as much as 9/11 and Grenfell.

YABU to extrapolate ideal behaviour from just two events, rather than taking the advice of the experts who deal with similar events every day.

Maybe you die 10% of the time you stay in the flat, but die 25% of the time you try to escape.

jennymor123 · 11/10/2018 18:59

There is a difference between smoke inhalation and toxic fumes. Yes, smoke inhalation can kill you, for obvious reasons. But toxic fumes comprise deadly chemicals like hydrogen cyanide which are undetectable to nose and eye. Hydrogen cyanide can kill with just one breath but it can also stay for years in the body before causing severe health problems. In my view, the two are being conflated deliberately by those who wish attention to be taken off of toxicity. Big money is at risk if the full truth about toxic fumes emerges during the Inquiry.

greeneyedlulu · 11/10/2018 19:41

I'd run for it with my son over my shoulder.
I know this is hypothetical but it's our instinct to run from danger and protect our babies so when I just read a previous post saying no I'd stay put.... No you wouldn't, not if you had a chance of saving your child by running out of a burning building, no mother would! I think it really is that simple!
And I pray that I'm never in this situation!

AllTakenSoRubbishUsername · 11/10/2018 20:58

It is so horrific. But much publicity is made about being told to do one thing by the professionals and finding that another was actually the best option. I am assuming those very sad cases are in the minority and that actually the experience and research they put into this shows the safest thing to do on average (and those many survivors don't make the news). There will always be extreme cases, sadly.

NotBeforeCoffee · 11/10/2018 21:12

The incidents you’ve listed are completely unprecedented.
Have you looked into how many people have survived towerblock fires after following advice to remain?

Robstersgirl · 11/10/2018 21:17

I work in the field. Stay put policies are put in place to protect people living in high rise homes. Grenfell was such a disaster because fire safety regulations were not adhered to.
In the tower blocks I frequent our areas are fire compartmentalised meaning only 1 adjoining property would be effected by a fire at the neighbouring property. Fire doors prevent the spread of fire. Say flat A had a fire, the tenant leaves, neighbour at flat B leaves, the fire would have to get through the fire door that is the front door and another fire door before it could spread. The fire doors have intumescent strips which hold smoke even longer. You have an hours protection from those 2 doors. Special protocols are in place for tower block fires and city wide sprinklers have been fitted to all high rise properties. The fire service generally arrive within 5 mins of a fire starting. They go up the staircase put the fire out (pre sprinklers) and everyone is safe.
Scenario B
There’s a fire in Flat A, they leave, Flat B leaves, 100 other homes evacuate needlessly. Lifts don’t work in a fire. The fire service take much longer to get to property A, as everyone is leaving the building via the staircases. All the extra time this takes is precious minutes off how long those fire doors are going to do their job for. Staying Put unless told to leave is the safest thing in a block that has up to date fire risk assessments in place. Grenfell was failed massively. I stand by our stay put policy.

Robstersgirl · 11/10/2018 21:30

Also if it offers comfort to anyone, councils nationwide are learning from the Grenfell tragedy, the amount of works that have been put in place since Grenfell so fire regulations are above and beyond are astounding particularly given that councils are receiving less budget. Non essentials have gone out of the window and fire safety is the priority.

BertieBotts · 11/10/2018 22:16

Dying of smoke inhalation in corridors doesn't happen very often because these types of buildings were built with the one exit in mind, again these safeguards were breached in Grenfell. Who knows how many other towers they are breached in.

Each floor will have a self-closing door between the stairs and the lobby with entrances to flats. This means that if one flat is on fire, the smoke will possibly reach that lobby (meaning everyone on that floor should evacuate) but it should not reach the stairs. In the event that smoke did reach the stairs, all of the other floors ought to have this protective self-closing door to stop smoke from entering higher lobbies and endangering residents there.

However if you have an entire building full of people opening doors and trying to move through the staircases at once this is likely to lead to the doors being held open for much longer and allows the smoke to permeate, making the stairwell dangerous.

If you have self-closing fire doors on the flats themselves this is even better but I don't know if Grenfell Tower had these. I do know that residents reported poorly-done gas works which may have breached fire protective walls/doors and there were reports of unprotected gas pipes in the communal stairwells.

There was also reportedly an air system which was supposed to draw smoke out of the stairwell and fresh air in from outside. Unfortunately it didn't seem to work at Grenfell, I'm unclear on whether this was because it was installed incorrectly or whether it was because there was so much smoke outside which was being sucked back in. As the exterior of the building was designed as and originally made of concrete it would never have been anticipated that the outside might be on fire because it should not have been possible for it to burn. Grenfell wasn't a dangerous tower when it was built even with the single staircase. There are thousands of these buildings in Europe, I live in one and I am not worried about fire (and I do tend towards being fairly anxious about fires) because all of the fire safety features are maintained. I actually feel safer in my fourth floor flat than I would in an ordinary house, because so much here is designed to enable survival in the event of a fire. I do get a bit cross at my neighbours propping the staircase door open.

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 22:50

@jennymor123 Which means that the Grenfell residents will still be experiencing health issues from this decades from now.

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 22:56

YY Bertie I post on here a lot about some of those poorly executed works in social housing and link related articles. I do know though that some think "oh God HD is banging that drum again.

And i will keep on banging it.

e.g. Rydon STILL showing a shitty attitude post Grenfell

twitter.com/SimonHappily/status/1046903252216950785

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 23:06

Rydon were also part of this refurb.

THIS DOCUMENT. Myatts Field North refurb.

www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/fileadmin/documents/research/pfisocialhousing/MFN_PFI_Refurb_Experiences_Report.pdf
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HelenaDove Fri 14-Jul-17 22:10:33

Residents were told to remove their pets, but no compensation was offered to cover the
costs involved.
 No consideration was given to residents who worked night shifts.
 Workers used electricity paid for by of residents, without offering compensation.
 Doors were left open and residents were able to wander in unchallenged by workers
who did not know them.
 Quality alterations that residents had already made to their homes were ripped out to
make way for inferior alternatives.
 Supposedly completed electrical rewiring was found to be substandard and occasionally
dangerous.
 Supposedly completed pipe works and its housing were found to be substandard.
 In some homes, odd sized radiators and kitchen unit doors had been fitted.
 Flooding in one home had been caused by an unsupervised apprentice.
 Households were left overnight without running water or a toilet.
 At least one resident was left without electricity for a whole weekend.
 Some workers were found to be abusive, bullying and inconsiderate, especially towards
elderly or otherwise vulnerable residents

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 23:07

"Hodkinson carried out a qualitative survey of 14 homes refurbished by Rydon that had been the subject of a huge number of complaints. Showers were fitted next to electric fans. A toilet was installed so close to a wall that you could only sit on it sideways. Some households went for days without electricity and weeks without cooking facilities. Cupboards were fitted with wrongly size doors. Tenants who complained reported that they were treated dismissively. One remembered the site supervisor saying to him, “It ain’t Chelsea, mate.” Regenter’s out-of-hours emergency line linked to the wrong database, so callout engineers weren’t available. The striking thing was how long problems could drag out: one family’s flat was flooded in January 2014, and repairs weren’t even scheduled till September. Two years later, their flat still hadn’t been fully repaired and redecorated. Even at the most straightforward level, the work wasn’t done to a decent standard.

When approached for comment, Rydon said that since the complaints were made, three years ago, attempts have been made to remedy the problems. They said the comments were not reflective of most of the residents, and that there was a good level of satisfaction among the residents now.

For tenants with more complicated requirements, the situation was worse. The Cifuentes family, one of whom used a wheelchair, was left without ramps, hoists or any means of escape in a fire, and without a lock on the front door. Repairs were so slow and haphazard that, at one point, the family had to move out for over a month, and the disabled member could only have his needs met by going into a respite unit – whereupon they were threatened with losing their carer’s allowance, their disability allowance and their car."

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 23:11

Petition to bring housing associations AND public service contractors under the FOI Act.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3378879-Petition-to-bring-housing-associations-under-the-FOI-Act

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 23:19

Grenfell survivor says tenants were bullied during the renovation and unhappy about boilers being put in corridors.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/03/grenfell-tenants-were-bullied-during-refurbishment-says-fire-survivor?CMP=share_btn_tw

NicoAndTheNiners · 11/10/2018 23:32

I also know someone who was in the second tower at 9/11 who ignored advice to stay and got out while most of their colleagues died.

That advice was given because at the time their tower hadn’t been hit and the danger was from the falling debris from the first tower so it was felt they were safer inside.

People didn’t know it was a terrorist attack until the second plane hit, thought it was an awful accident.

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 23:43

Robsters Some councils are and some arent.

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/becka-hudson/councils-trying-to-use-grenfell-as-excuse-to-clear-estates
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HelenaDove Wed 26-Sep-18 23:36:47

"The councils trying to use Grenfell as an excuse to clear estates
Becka Hudson 20 September 2018

Since a fire killed 72 people in London's Grenfell Tower, councils have been using safety concerns to try to move people out of housing estates.

Broadwater Farm Estate. By Iridescenti - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0.

It seemed, at least for a time after the Grenfell fire, that social housing was atop the political agenda. Housing was centred at party conferences, discussed in reams of media, and organisations from across the political spectrum issued announcements, green papers, and reports on the topic. Many argued that Grenfell must signal a turning point in how the UK houses people. Amidst this discussion, we were introduced to the fire’s likely causes. There were those named individuals, from councillors to contractors, and then there were its systemic roots. A deeply embedded ‘culture’ of neglect and dispossession: the ignoring of tenants, the arbitrary revocation of crucial safety law, and widespread social cleansing of blocks, estates and entire neighbourhoods under the guise of ‘regeneration’.

Ten days after the fire and one borough across, late one Friday night, thousands of estate residents were rushed from their homes into makeshift relief shelters. Safety checks by Camden council, issued in the aftermath of Grenfell, had found the Chalcots estate covered in similar flammable cladding. The sudden evacuation was widely criticised. Residents complained about the councils’ aggressive approach, their lack of communication and rehousing options and, even as late as March this year, their disregard for residents as revelations of further safety problems emerged. Residents’ confrontations with council leader Georgia Gould went viral. One featured a woman countering Gould’s assertion that safety was the council’s priority, pointing out “for this long now you’ve allowed them to live in this property that’s been dangerous – how?”. Back up in Chalcots’ towers, around 200 people refused to leave. For them, the chaos and lack of support in leaving posing a greater threat than staying put. As one such occupier told a journalist “It [seeing Grenfell] does make us want to leave, But [...] there’s nowhere to go, and they’re not looking to move us out anywhere convenient.”

Despite the media, the promises and the reports, these catch-22s persist in estates across the country. For one, many thousands of people continue to live in buildings coated in flammable cladding. Though the prime minister finally committed to funding the removal of unsafe cladding from social blocks this May, the process is partial, and slow. And when such insulation is removed, residents are presented with a new safety battle. As Ruth from the Safe Cladding and Insulation Now (SCIN) campaign explains: “One of the most widespread safety risks is lack of insulation, in a country where thousands die every winter because they can't afford to heat their homes. [...]” She argues that unless the cladding crisis is acted on soon, “given the current standards of building regulations and enforcement, we are likely to see basically sound old estates demolished and replaced with "modern" ones where residents are at serious risk from both cold, and overheating.”

Elsewhere, local authorities are discovering that decades of neglecting and underfunding council homes present safety concerns beyond fire. In Tottenham’s Broadwater Farm estate, two blocks were revealed to be structurally unsound following ‘post-Grenfell’ safety checks. The blocks were vulnerable to collapse if there were an explosion or vehicle impact. Haringey Council’s response, too, has been speedy evacuation – this time in order to demolish both blocks. 200 households are being told they must permanently leave their homes before October, when their supplier intends to switch off gas supply. Questions from residents and campaigners have arisen about the council’s intentions, and their ability, to afford adequate rehousing whilst demolition takes place and to guarantee any new towers would be available for all the same residents, at the same rent.

What faces residents of demolished social housing? Experiences from other demolitions are instructive: the land usually sold to a private developer, and the number of social housing units built in their place slashed. Council tenants are often forced to leave their communities, enter the private rental sector or move into pricey, often inadequate and invariably insecure temporary accommodation as they await another council home that may never come. Jacob, a resident of one of the towers facing demolition and a member of its Residents Association explains: ‘Council tenants get lied to all the time. I believe that strengthening the blocks [to prevent collapse], is expensive but it would be cheaper [than demolition]. Because it’s been deliberately neglected for so long, there isn’t a groundswell of residents asking for the council to save ‘our lovely block’. But as people move people into small and temporary flats, I don’t think they’ll be happy.”

These impossible binds in which council tenants are caught, be they around heating costs or safety concerns, are not inevitable. Even as government, and the developers and contractors with which they work, continue to do next to nothing to address the housing crisis, they patently could. One recent breakthrough was the Mayor of London’s introduction of a requirement for resident ballots to be taken on estates facing regeneration, official guidance on which was released this summer. The move was a step forward in demonstrating avenues for genuine consultation and accountability, though it is has key loopholes, including one exemption for demolitions needed for ‘safety reasons’. At Broadwater Farm, it’s the timing of any such ballot that matters.

“They say they will have a ballot or consultation after everyone is moved out”, Jacob counters, “but residents will have already moved by then, and are likely to be out of the block for two years, probably even longer.” The process indeed works as a disincentive to residents interested in refurbishment as opposed to demolition. “If there is a ballot and residents vote for refurbishment, we won’t be entitled to the £6,000 payment we would if it were demolished.”. After the considerable costs of moving home, £6,000 is not a small sum to refuse. Jacob’s message to local authorities? “Don’t use safety concerns to displace residents”.

It is not a problem exclusive to Tottenham. Across the river in Peckham, the Ledbury Estate was condemned as unsafe last year. Southwark council’s response? Demolition. For Danielle, from the estate’s Action Group, this isn’t good enough. “We had been raising these safety concerns for years and they have to be taken seriously. But the job to convince everyone they’re doing the right thing by decanting us is the council’s responsibility”. It is difficult for residents to read Southwark council’s actions as motivated by concern for safety. Just last month it was revealed they claimed to have carried out post-Grenfell risk assessments on 174 Southwark blocks; in fact they had checked just eight. On the ballot question, for Southwark, the writing is on the wall. “The results from our consultation have just come through”, Danielle tells me “The majority of people want the towers saved – it is now a question of money. For the council, it should be a case of listening and taking seriously what residents want. They should have a say in what happens next.”

The disregard for residents that built towards the deadliest fire in living memory now persists even when councils aim, or claim, to be addressing safety issues. Residents are routinely ignored on safety and, when councils act, are being coerced into impossible decisions. Thousands face potentially lethal fire, deadly cold, structural collapse – or displacement and entirely insecure housing options. As Danielle says of Southwark’s response to Ledbury, ‘If this continues then people will not trust to raise safety concerns, they’ll be pushed away from wanting to make them.’ Some journalists who covered the Chalcots estate last year interviewed residents refusing to leave with an air of bemusement: why would anyone stay in a categorically dangerous home? If councils don’t listen to tenants and do their utmost to act in the interests of both their safety and their housing security, we are likely to see more of the same"

HelenaDove · 11/10/2018 23:46

the twitter link in my post at 22.56 is re. the Chalcots.

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