To just leave, despite what emergency services say!

[beckysamantha91]

Long time lurker, first time poster, however - I'm watching a documentary on Grenfell, everyone who got told to stay to basically died and everyone who ignored it and left survived. It was exactly the same for the 2nd tower in 9/11 - they were all told to stay and those who did ended up dying.

Is it just me who thinks if I am ever in a dangerous situation and told to stay, I'm better off taking my family and running?

I also understand that the emergency service s are doing the best they can, but I still think in those situations where communication (and knowledge) is limited but critical, you're better off taking your chances?

@papayasareyum Do you think you know better than the experts? All evacuation plans will have been reviewed since Grenfell, they're in a far better place to tell your daughter what to do than you are. Your instructions could cost lives, including that of your daughter.

On the other hand getting yourself and your mates out promptly means a bit less work for the fire fighters when they arrive so they can concentrate on people in difficulty.
Not so antisocial imo.

But it is antisocial if it's directly contrary to advice you've been given from the fire service.

The people on the lower floors of Grenfell who were told to stay put were rescued. Many of them said the corridors were full of smoke, they couldn't see or breathe without proper apparatus, and in those cases they did better to wait to be rescued.

Regarding 9/11, yet it was better to flee, as no one could've foreseen that the towers would fall (all predictions said they wouldn't - yet they both did).

I think the bigger point is to use your brain and your judgement. If your instincts are telling you to get the hell out, then do that. Don't wait. I also know people who were close to/involved in the events of 9/11 and yes, those who ran at the first sign of trouble were the ones who survived.

Emergency services are just people, making difficult decisions based on the training they've had. I absolutely trust that they have our best interests at heart and will be trying to save people the best way they know how, but I wouldn't put my trust in them over and above my own instincts

This is exactly my own position. I (hope) I'd have realised the risks of blocked stairways, etc, but would still have made my own decisions on the basis that the chances of surviving an incident are said to depend on your own actions within the first few minutes

The same thing happened with the Carnival cruise ship that hit the rocks in Italy. The passengers were told to stay in the ship and many perished. The ones that ignored that advice and got out survived. I would go with my gut feeling every time.

I live in a tower block higher than grenfell I'm on the 18th floor, we also have cladding as people complained our block was an eyesore, we have sprinklers in our flats thank god already. But the cladding on tower blocks has a rating out of 3. Grenfell was 1 our block is 2. We want the cladding off as when the fire tests to see how fast it can spread was done, ours went up just a bit slower than grenfells did, atm our council is struggling so they cannot afford to remove it but our policy has been changed to get out we also have fire exits built into each flat but being on the 18th floor with two kids it can take around 25 minutes to reach outside going down the stair well.

Our block says stay put - but there's only 4 flats. We have fire doors but I would leave, I have the main door, a patio door and a load of windows I can get out from

@Satsumaeater I saw a documentary on the Austrian tunnel fire (I think it was Seconds From Disaster). IIRC the people who ran the other way and survived did so under the guidance of someone with professional knowledge of fires, however they had to run through flames to do so therefore I can see why you'd have to fight against all instincts in that particular case. The others who ran away from the fire perished because it was uphill meaning the smoke was drawn upwards so they died from smoke inhalation.

I don't know how I'd react to a disaster in real life. I was in a small earthquake once and just sat there because it was over before my brain had time to process what happened - it didn't occur to me to dive for cover!

I think people should use their own judgement and ignore what they are told much more often than they do. Not just in dangerous situations, but life in general. I would not have stayed in that burning building.

Another veteran of the NI Troubles here - "Get out and stay out" is the mantra I grew up with and I'm sticking to it!

At work we are in a 15 storey building and the advice is - raise alarm if you see a fire then get out as quickly as possible.

Staying in a burning building would go against all my instincts.

The others who ran away from the fire perished because it was uphill

It was the same at the awful Kings Cross tube station fire ... all those poor people killed when, had they gone down instead of up, they'd probably have survived (though to be fair that wasn't on the basis of "official" advice)

Trouble is, there's often so little time to decide. Watch this - in particular the elapsed time counter - to see exactly how fast a fire can spread

I would get out if there was a fire, at any cost. I would not care whether it affected the emergency services who were trying to put the fire out (not really sure why me leaving would impede them that much) because I only have one life and I'd rather it not be ended by me burning to death.

It would be the same on a plane in the event of an emergency landing, I would fight my way out regardless of the cost to others. In a matter of life and death, you have to think and act quickly.

@ChelleDawg2020 do you not think that's unbelievably selfish though? Putting emergency service staff at risk when you yourself may be in no actual danger?

In case of fire I'd always get myself and my child outside as quickly as possible.
In case of bomb attack, run away from the blast as quickly as possible.
In case of gun attack, run and hide. Lock myself in somewhere if possible and stay away from windows. Turn phone on silent.

In reality I don't know how it would work, I can't run due to an injury and possible post traumatic arthritis (waiting for mri). I'd just hope I could save ds in an emergency. Maybe the adrenaline would help.

Office buildings have entirely different evacuation procedures to domestic homes in blocks though.

A few points.

Buildings like Grenfell which are not designed to be evacuated in their entirety don't have linked fire alarms. You don't put a fire alarm somewhere that you don't want people to evacuate, because that would cause confusion and panic, or alternatively train people to ignore the alarm which is not what you want on the one occasion you do want them to evacuate. So the advice to leave if you hear an alarm stays. If you don't hear an alarm, it's probably because evacuation is not necessary. Obviously there are cases where alarms are missing or faulty but this is rare.

Advice in an ordinary, 1-3 storey house is always to get out ASAP because this is a much smaller space with many fewer people and it doesn't cause a hazard to try to evacuate. It's a no-brainer - there is no risk to weigh up, the risk is from staying. In high buildings with high numbers of people to evacuate, evacuation itself presents a risk, particularly if it is not done in an orderly manner.

It has ALWAYS been advised to leave if smoke and/or flames are visible. It's not true that people are told to stay when they can see the fire. You always want to evacuate everybody close enough to be affected. The only reason to stay put is if you are in a safe space which is protected from fire and evacuating would pose a bigger danger.

Crushes and panic ARE deadly and this risk shouldn't be underestimated. If you think about what happened at Hillsborough - the people at the back of the crowd kept pushing forwards because they had no idea what was happening at the front, it didn't seem anywhere near as cramped and this can be the case in an evacuation scenario. Now imagine that you're pushing into a crowd which seems to be moving slowly for no reason and your motivation to get to the front quicker is not excitement about a football game, but fear for your life as smoke and heat chase you from behind. People push even harder, the crush becomes even more deadly. Possibly if the exit is small enough and enough people are trying to come through too quickly, it could actually become blocked by bodies of those trying to escape, therefore trapping EVERYONE inside.

Look up the Station Nightclub fire (Do not I repeat DO NOT watch the video. If you are tempted to watch it at least read about it first.) - this is a documented incidence of the above happening. In that situation/building, evacuation was obviously necessary but it shows the dangers of uncoordinated evacuation. People may have been able to get out in that scenario had they been aware of and heading for the closest exit, rather than all going for the same one.

I'm assuming, op, you are not being crass and blaming people for getting killed.

Lol at people saying they would trust their instincts

Ever heard of flight, fight or freeze? The instinct to shut down and stay put is strong

As others have said, the Stay Put policy is based on the notion/hope that if fire-stopping measures are all working well, fire will not spread to your apartment. We know, however, that they were not working well in Grenfell Tower - for the past few days survivors have been telling the Inquiry that their windows let in air, for a start.

However, there is a subject that is being used somewhat politically and that's toxic fumes. Hydrogen cyanide, for example, is invisible and odourless, and it can easily travel from an apartment on fire to ones that aren't. Fire brigade phone operators ask callers if they can see or smell fire or smoke and if not, stay put. Which means, in effect you have to make your own decision at such a terrible moment - do you trust the containment of the block to keep out toxic fumes and if you don't then you get out whatever the operator tells you to do.

Our house is 4 storeys high. If fire broke out, we can get out by the front or back doors, or get down into the basement and then out through there. That depends on being able to moe somewhere about the ground floor or being able to get to it. On the first floor we can go down the stairs (ovs) or we can open the massive window on the side of the house and climb out onto the flat roof. On the second floor, well you can't get out directly but you can go down to first and out or then to ground and out, or up to 3rd floor. On the 3rd floor, you can open the window, throw out the fixed rope ladder, and climb down.

There are so many alternatives that I've always felt confident that we would be fine, but we did have a visit by the fire brigade a few years ago, and were told we'd never survive - "none of you" was said. I actually find that hard to believe. Even I, with ms, would be able to get up one small flight from 2nd to 3rd and down the ladder if I had enough adrenaline coursing through my veins! I worry more about getting the cats to safety (but also believe they are v capable of looking after themselves especially with a catflap).

I wonder how did they get the message to the people on the top floors, to stay put, at Grenfell?

People were on the line to 999 who were advising them

ahh I see

Jux you seem very dismissive of the professional opinion of the fire service. Can I ask why?

I would think that fire fighters who see everyday the effects of smoke inhalation and the complete lack of visibility in thick smoke might have a better idea than you of how feasible it is to safely evacuate your home.

I'm pretty sure the poor Grenfell victims had plenty of adrenaline.