To just leave, despite what emergency services say!

[beckysamantha91]

Long time lurker, first time poster, however - I'm watching a documentary on Grenfell, everyone who got told to stay to basically died and everyone who ignored it and left survived. It was exactly the same for the 2nd tower in 9/11 - they were all told to stay and those who did ended up dying.

Is it just me who thinks if I am ever in a dangerous situation and told to stay, I'm better off taking my family and running?

I also understand that the emergency service s are doing the best they can, but I still think in those situations where communication (and knowledge) is limited but critical, you're better off taking your chances?

What has a working smoke alarm got to do with the fact that they were instructed by firefighters to stay put?

jellie, for your third and fourth option these also include "and hamper the attempts of the fire service to get in and therefore increase the chances of other people dying".

i guess weve seen the examples where it went wrong.but we woulnt hear the examples of all the fires the must occure in day to day where poeple have stayed and therefore lived?and the building has been secure because its cladding etc is correct?i don't know.
and in other fires do we know that the people that died didn't try to run?
im just thinking of this because surely there has to be a reason they made these rules and they would change them if people were dying from them!

My point was that it was a truly exceptional situation. The absolute vast majority of fire deaths in the U.K. happen in homes which don't have a working fire alarm.

No I would stay, simply because when you made your 999 call persons reported would be logged and passed on to the fire crews, who would then do a search and rescue.

My survival instinct would kick in so I'd get the hell out of there regardless of so-called expert advice.

I grew up in NI during the troubles, trust me....wherever you go, shopping centre, cinema etc - always note where the fire exits are. Make it a habit. Then if there is a fire, bomb, whatever - even if its on your knees (in a fire the air you can breathe is near the ground) its a good idea to get out asap. I certainly wouldn't wait to be a victim.

I've always thought running or a stealthy crouching escape or running in a zig zag pattern if being shot at are probably the best options. Fuck waiting to be rescued, it's more often just waiting to die.

The tragedy of grenfell was that residents had raised concerns and not been listened to.

It’s not that the residents or emergency services made poor choices. It’s that cost and appearance was prioritised above safety by the owners of the building.

I have been in scary situations, I always look for escape routes and there is a part of my brain always thinking ‘if there was an emergency now what would I do...’ but ultimately if you are in an unsafe building your chances aren’t great whichever way you slice it.

I also think, and this is a selfish viewpoint, that emergency services aim for the highest number of people to survive. So let's say they're evacuating one floor at a time, and manage to save all the people on floors 1-8 but those on floors 9 and 10 die because it's too late? That goes down on paper as a successful evacuation, as most people survive. I'm telling you, if my kids are trapped on the top floor, I want them to get out any way they can, against advice if necessary.

If the Grenfell tower had behaved the way it was meant to, the advice to stay put would have been safe. Staying put means the stairs are clear for the fire service to get in, get to the the fire, and put it out. But of course Grenfell didn't behave like it was supposed to, but nobody knew that.
Now, if I was in a high building I wouldn't stay put, because Grenfell has shown that the current regulations are so poorly enforced that you can't guarantee things will work as they should. I always check to see where the escape route is in hotels.
Have a Google and read about Rick Rescorla, who was the head of security for Morgan Stanley at the WTC. He insisted on people knowing how to evacuate the building because he thought an attack by terrorists was inevitable and even suggested a plane might be used.
On 9-11 he got 2967 staff safely out of the south tower by overruling the order to stay put after the first plane hit, and singing marching songs to keep them moving. He then broke his own rules and went back in. He was last seen on the tenth floor, heading up. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. He was one of just 11 Morgan Stanley staff killed.

I do remember having the fire talk with my parents though and that was how to get the hell out and safely.
I do worry though as when the fire alarm has gone off in the middle of the night(pre drink toast making) no one in the house has woken!

In the case of phased evacuation it is the floors about the fire which are evacuated first because fire spreads upwards. And nobody in the fire service would say an evacuation was successful if people died ffs!

Flying buildings aren't evacuated from the ground up.

Oh, I'm not for one second blaming the emergency services or suggesting their advice is wrong, I'm sure they know best in the majority of circumstances. I'm just saying I would not 'stay put' in a burning building if I could get out. I just don't think any amount of training covers all eventualities, as Grenfell proves.

I live in a ground floor apartment of a 2 storey building. I could not ever think of moving to a high rise block of flats.
Many years ago I was invited with some friends to a party in a high rise block of flats and it was not a good feeling.
The elevators were tiny, the corridors narrow, it was like a maze.
I was totally disorientated. I managed half an hour before I had to leave.

I had no idea my reaction was going to be like that entering that building as I am usually a very calm and collected person.

A good few years ago now, one of the first things I did when I moved in to this apartment was to buy a fire extinguisher.

Rescorla also insisted that their fire drills were conducted properly - everyone had to leave even just for a drill. It meant everyone knew exactly what they were supposed to be doing when the alarm went off.

Tower block near me there was a fire in a ground floor flat. You can see the damage from outside - flat totally black and destroyed. Whole rest of the building untouched. That is how fires in tower blocks are supposed to go and that is why you are asked to stay put.

If everyone had gone hot footing down the stairs there probably would have been a good number of stairwell injuries.

Perhaps not, Herman. It was just an illustration really...I just think that you can't always save everyone, so there's no point waiting to be saved. Try to save yourself if possible.

There were those within the industry pointing out that putting those sorts of cladding "systems" in place was a bad idea. And raising concerns about the "regulation" of building works. It will be interesting to hear what the inquiry finds when it is complete. We will be waiting a while though.

They weren’t waiting to be saved though. They shouldn’t have needed saving.

The emergency service advice is just protocol for that type of emergency. In the case of Grenfell the advice to stay put was completely right and had the block not been covered in flammable cladding we'd likely never have heard of it. The problem arises in that one person on the ground has to recognise quickly this is not a normal situation make the decision to change the advice being given, get senior officers to agree and get this information passed to all staff immediately. In all honesty even if someone is brave enough to make that call, and if its wrong hundred of deaths are in their head, its unlikely to be made quick enough to help.
With that in mind and if you are ever in that sort of situation you need to make your own risk assessment and decide what is best for you.

I really struggle with this too. I was brought up in NI during the troubles where there were many many bomb scares. My dad always told me in the event of a bomb scare or fire, get out as fast and far away as possible, and don't hang around the security barriers waiting to get back in! So that's what I always did, where possible.

Now I live in Australia where there are no bomb scares, but we have regular fire alarms at work .The instructions are that after the alarm goes off, we to wait by our desks until we receive further instructions! Usually we have to wait at least a few minutes before being told to evacuate or not. It goes against my every instinct not to get the hell out as soon as the alarm sounds, and I'm only in a two story building! It seems crazy to me, but I do what I'm told, although I instinctively feel that its the wrong thing to do.

What makes you think police are better informed/educated than fire fighters?

The reason they told people to stay put was due to learning from other incidents where stampeding/panic was more dangerous than people waiting to be evacuated In an organised way.

On this occasion unfortunately it turned out not to be the right decision but it wasn't made lightly as you seem to be making out!

You don't and never have lived in a high rise, you ever been in a fire? Or terrorist attack? I have. People don't react sensibly, they panic, they get lost, they wander into hazardous areas...

Personally I think everyone should be taught first aid, how to get out of a building on fire, how to react in certain terrorist situations.

Having loads of people wandering about, heading to where the fire/smoke is worst, panicking and hoardes trying to all run down the stairwells at once - recipe for disaster.

Grenfell absolutely was a tragedy but who's to know if more people would've died, been seriously injured if they'd been "every one for themselves"?

"it's better to chance it and get crushed, rather than to stay and risk it? (Genuine question)!" Wow! The ignorance! You do know crushes can kill? Result in spinal injury?

I strongly recommend you get some first aid and emergency situation training.

www.redcross.org.uk/get-help/prepare-for-emergencies/how-to-prepare-in-case-of-a-terrorist-attack##

Flyingpompom you would be SO irresponsible to ignore the way you've been trained in fire drills, we have fire drills precisely to reduce panic, the idea being that that the training overrides wrong instincts.

Instincts aren't always right.

It's impossible to say in advance isn't it. Its true that sometimes emergency services will make the wrong call. Other times they won't.

Another example is the advice that if you get lost or stranded while driving, stay with your car as it's easier to find you. I believe that's good advice but there are a few times people have done that and died. You can't really judge what you would do in advance.

Watch the doco series "I shouldn't be alive" for many 'what would I have done" questions.