AIBU to think SAHM isn't an artist if she doesn't produce art?

[windygallows]

Woman I know has been a SAHM for 25 years but refuses to be called a SAHM and instead claims to be/wants to be called an artist.

Her artistry is more like a hobby that she does every few months. She has built a studio in her backyard to produce art but isn't there much. She has never sold her work, never had a show, never been part of a group show, never had an open house, doesn't have a website. Of course you don't need to do these things to be an artist, but I think producing work is key!

Her DH is part of a sort of posh 'cultural milieu' and I'm sure claiming she's an artist because it's a more acceptable title but come on - can you be an artist if you don't produce art, just like are you a writer if you don't or rarely write or a musician if you don't or haven't produced music?

It's a pretentious attempt to create an image of lovely artist scanning around their studio all day doing art.

I am what could be described as a (professional ) artist and if I had a pound for everyone who suggests that this is what life as an artist is like then I'd be considerably richer! The reality is that more time is spent updating websites, promoting on social media, organising exhibitions and shows and liaising with galleries than actually painting in the studio.

The truth is that there are all kinds of artists out there, both hobbyists and professional. Would I have described myself as an artist before I turned it into a full time career...no and even now it feels wanky describing myself that way!

If you take photos, you are a photographer. If you make music, you are a musician. If you make art, you’re an artist.

OP, you don't know for sure she isn't producing any art. Perhaps she isn't confident enough to show it yet, even privately. I think if somebody says 'I'm an X' they should be taken at their word unless there is overwhelming evidence that they are not X, and even so it's polite not to brandish your suspicions in front of them. Jeremy Paxman apparently keeps in mind the question "Why is this lying bastard lying to me?" when he interviews politicians (which is fine obviously) and it seems that a lot of people approach casual social interactions in the same inquisitorial manner, trying to prove that any achievements the other person might have are BS and that they are a fraud who should be unmasked as triumphantly as possible. "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that pesky random judgy person!" :)

I'm not sure what motivates people to automatically assume the worst, and why it matters to them if somebody really carries out X to some arbitrary external standard or if they are more of a dilettante, or indeed why is it so bad to be a dilettante. I think the answer to the first question is pathological jealousy and the answer to the second and third questions is the philistine belief that if you aren't paid for doing an activity, it must be completely worthless.

HollowGirl
I hear you. Friends of mine in music have had similar.
Doing what you're doing it totally different to someone being at home and painting because they like it.
I think you sum it up here: Would I have described myself as an artist before I turned it into a full time career...no and even now it feels wanky describing myself that way!
It's not wanky to describe yourself as an artist when you are an artist though. But you've said yourself how much goes on behind the scenes. I don't think it's reasonable for people who have a hobby to talk up a hobby to make it seem more than it is.

I really feel for someone who needs to come on social media and slag off someone else's choices.

If she was and artist pre children, then why shouldn't she still be an artist post children? If I'm a doctor pre children then take time off to care for them, should I not mention the fact that I am a doctor until I am actually being paid for the doctoring??

This is another thinly veiled anti SAHM thread. You'd think women would be over this but there are still so many who are insecure about their own choices and so feel the need to bring down others.

Maybe just have some compassion. She maybe doesn’t like to admit she doesn’t have a job because she is worried about about how others will judge her/think of her because of this. If she calls herself an artist it gives her permission not to be employed/self employed without having to justify herself. It would be great if she felt confident enough to say she doesn’t work but needs some validation or to be seen in a positive light. She’s not committing a crime by not working.

Calling yourself a sahm is somehow seen to be not enough, or shameful somehow as its not always a role that is particularly valued by society and so they feel the need to embellish.

Or, maybe, whilst it's something she does, it's not what she feels defines her. I think being a horsewoman is a part of me in a way that no job I've done ever has been. I've been horse-obsessed since I was 3 years old and will be until the day I die. Nothing else in my life has been that long term.

Sure, I wouldn't describe myself as a singer, because singing is just something I do sometimes, like photography. But my father is an artist. Would the OP define him as such? Probably not. He's sold some art and had some exhibitions, but not for around 10 years now so she wouldn't know this if she met him now. But an artist is what he is.

She's not harming anyone. Leave her to it.

The more important question is why do you care?

This appears to be a not very covert dig at SAHMs.

How does it affect you if she calls herself an artist or a vampire slayer or indeed a rainbow-catcher.

Live and let live.

Anyone can call themselves whatever they like but unless you're actually doing what you're claiming you do it all gets a bit silly.

I sing in a choir, occasionally we sing for others, I would never describe myself as a singer.

One of my DDs sings to entertain other people, it's not her main job, but sometimes she gets paid for it, sometimes she doesn't, I've never heard her or her partner introduce her to anyone as a singer, likewise her partner who plays in a reasonably successful band.

I suspect very few partners of actual artists would introduce them to someone as my spouse/partner the artists. I'd find it embarrassing if I were her tbh.

"refuses to be called a SAHM"... well who's been trying to insist to her that she is a SAHM for you to know this?

If she feels that her vocation in life is creating art then she is an artist, whether she does it to the quantity or quality that satisfies you or not OP. Judge away, think she's rubbish, lazy whatever but your need to gossip and bitch about her and her husband makes you look the one with the problem.

Incidentally the Oxford English Dictionary defines an artists as:

A person who creates paintings or drawings as a profession or hobby.

1.1 A person who practises or performs any of the creative arts, such as a sculptor, film-maker, actor, or dancer.

1.2 A person skilled at a particular task or occupation

An artist is not necessarily someone who is paid to produce art. In fact I know plenty of people who do that who I really wouldn't call artists!!

@MaisyPops your friends sound great and that they have achieved tons. No doubt down to hard work as you've mentioned!

My point is that I'm wary of automatically linking the 'one, true, authentic' definition of what it means to be an artist, to what is essentially a very commercially successful definition of artist.

You can be an artist, pour everything you have into your work and strive to make profound work - and still not be commercially successful. But you are still an artist.

Lack of financial success does not invalidate your being an artist, or the quality of the work.

some artists and writers were not famous until after their death when the sales took place. don't knock it.

Were all loads of things. I’d be seriously pissed off if sombody introduced me at a party as “this is museum, she’s a wife”
I’d be if they said “this is museum she’s a mum” but yeh ok
I more often get “this is museum she works in x-place”
But occasionally I get “this is museum she cycles / runs” (generally I assume this is because the introducing person has identified that the other person might have this interest in common)

If somebody works in the cultural sector it makes more sense to introduce this woman as an artist than a mother as surely art is the shared interest?

I am with you OP - I have one friend that describes himself as a musician,if you ask him what he does for a living. He isn't, he is in a "band" (he's 45) and plays occasionally in venues where you have to pay to perform. He's not bad, but has never earned money from his music. He works by day, and earns his living as an accountant. Why not just say I am an accountant but making music is my hobby? Similarly I have another friend who is unemployed and is "writing a book" therefore describes herself as a writer not a jobseeker. This is despite never having written anything before, not having any discernable skill (by which I mean she has never been on even a short creative writing course or got any kind of English / literature type qualification) and never having anything published before. I blame the X factor and social media culture that tells people they can "be whatever they want to be" if they believe hard enough regardless of whether or not they have any skill or experience in the first place!! If you believe in yourself enough you are whatever you want to be. Even if you're shit at it

Selling tat on Facebook isn't being a business woman.
Joining an MLM isnt being an entrepreneur.
Doing your hobby doesn't make someone an athlete or a baker or an artist.

Depends where you draw the line. Qualifications? Profits? Turnover? That stuff could be anything from a hobby, a hobby business (or vanity business if we want to be rude about it) to a genuinely profitable lifestyle business. Hard to know ftom the outside. MLM doesn't count of course, it's a scam which provides a lucky windfall for a few and loses social capital as well as £££ for most.

Maybe this woman is working on some big project you aren't aware of, OP? Would that be okay? Many works of art, literature,etc took years and years to come to fruition. Who knows what's in her pipeline.

Totally. My favourite example: Marcel Proust had to self-publish because no publisher could believe that this frivolous social butterfly could write anything of serious merit!

I can understand the irritation.

I was talking to a woman I met (ferrying dcs around) and I said I was a SAHM and they said they were a "writer". Further discussion elicited that they had not actually had anything published not was anything imminent. So saying they were a writer as opposed to my SAHM was one-upmanship and pretentious.

I also wonder about pop stars who were the drummer in a band in 1986, people who wrote one book, actors who had one part in The Bill 27 years ago... Why do they still say they are a "musician" or "actor" or "author" because clearly their past one minute of fame is not currently paying the bills.

Everyone has the right to describe themselves an artist or a musician. There's no requirement to sell anything or spend a certain number of hours doing it.
I wouldn't be introducing anyone in terms of what they did though unless there was a very particular reason. That's the wanky bit. Just a name usually suffices.

So it can only be called art if it is monetised ? I don’t know quite where to begin with this depressing and narrow view. . Just because she isn’t networking, promoting a website, flogging her stuff around art fairs etc doesn’t mean she isn’t producing art. A lot of mediocre stuff sells that way.

I was visiting a house of a stranger ( with a mutual friend) recently and her art blew me away ( and I lecture on art history, and paint as well ) She doesn’t do any of the promotional things the OP lists as being evidence of being a ‘real’ artist and she doesn’t sell her work but she is absolutely a very talented, original and accomplished artist.

On the other hand, I know a couple of people who are doing very well in the smoke and mirrors world of contemporary art, when who you know, and who you can get to be a patron, can matter much more than actual talent. The art business at the sharp end is just that, a very cynical business.

You are making a distinction OP that a person can only be called an artist if they are earning money from it or doing it in a professional capacity. If a person does art as hobby they are still an artist, just not a professional one. You also aren't taking into account the fact that not every artist feels at their most creative on a constant basis, it may come in waves or after a moment of inspiration. I'm an illustrator and I have my own personal insight into that.

There is also such a thing as minding your own business. The lady you are speaking of is harming nobody and I doubt you know everything about her artistic output over the years - she may be producing more than you think but keeping it private.

@AbsentmindedWoman
Yeah thats why i said intent and not "income".

Take two guys who work in admin.
One does a monthly open mic and plays around with his guitar once or twice a week.
The other does every gig opportunity that comes his way, uploads his stuff and is trying to record his album.

To me the second is a musician with a day job, the first is an admin assistant with a cool hobby

Maybe you just don't know.

Neighbours (I have just found out) think I don't work.

I make and sell craft items online.

No one outside my immediate family know the extent of my work.
Wider family assume I am playing at stuff and indulging a hobby.

The reality is far from that.

AbsentmindedWoman
I see where you're coming from.

Maybe AmDram have it right making the distinction between people in AmDram and actual actors. Someone in an Amateur Dramatics production wouldn't describe themselves as an actor any more than I would describe myself as a musician because to say 'hi I'm Maisy and I'm a musician' is about giving the impression that's what I do. I am a musician in that I can play multiple instruments and can compose etc but to try and create an elevated image would upselling and ridiculous.
If my DH started self identifying as a horticulturalist because he happens to be very talented with green fingers then I'd think he was being wanky.

People should make whatever choices and do whatever hobbies they want and spare the world all the upselling and over inflating descriptions.

I describe myeslf as a writer but no one is buying my work right now.
Does that make me not a writer?
Should i say i am a laundry doer?
Is payment the only thing that makes a person what they are?

there is a whiff of the sneer about this post OP. If no one ever made art what a boring world this would be.

If you take that viewpoint, then only the independently wealthy can ever strike out as an 'artist' concentrating solely on their art, because it takes time to be able to eke out the most modest of livings from writing or painting (for example) alone. Many published writers still keep other jobs to earn a steady living.

More than that, even. I'm a writer, and know a lot of others, mostly novelists, some very high-profile -- and the only one I know who does not also have a job is one who was independently wealthy from family money before becoming a successful YA author.

The arts aren't well-remunerated unless you're lucky as well as talented, and frankly, no one gets into it for the cash, so applying 'you're only an artist if you make a living at it' really doesn't work.