To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

A girl is a child/teen who lives life as a female, who uses female pronouns. A woman is an adult who lives life as a female. It is not difficult.

It may not be difficult but it is wrong. Those are not the definition of girl or woman.

A woman is an adult human female. A girl is an immature human female. Female is of the sex class that bears live young and has large immobile gametes.

Sex is not a matter of opinion. It’s factual and you can’t change it.

These kids at GG are not strangers to the other children.

That’s irrelevant. Most rape and sexual assault is committed by men known to the victim.

I've posted about this on other threads.
I think it's dreadful that if a girl who is changing the gender they identify as should be excluded from Guides.

They are struggling at a very challenging time in their lives and a lot of their experiences will be similar to other Guides - it could provide a very supportive environment for them as well as a great non-critical space for them to hang out with their friends.
The implied result that someone identifying as a boy (or perhaps not identifying as a particular gender at all) wouldn't be happy in Guides is simply gender stereotyping.
They can't put a foot right here until they own the fact they are a mixed sex, mixed gender organisation.

This may interest people. letter from girlguiding

Personally I am going to write to GG and ask that a full and public consultation on this subject be carried out.

Would genuinely be interested to hear if anyone who is not involved in Guiding or volunteering has been motivated to join because of these threads.

Scribbly I was seriously considering volunteering this year. I won’t now.

GG has acted without consultation to make its organisation single gender, a concept I profoundly disagree with. I wanted my DC to escape gender.

Swissgemma if in fact you are not hard of thinking, how can you write things like 'talks and eats as a female'? What the hell does that mean?

Also, if you accept that gender, not sex can be changed, and that gender is the way people perceive themselves (and apparently talk and eat), then what is the justification for segregating based on gender?

As for the race, that's nice, but I am sure that the millions of black people in this country who have been subjected to racism and prejudice as a result of their skin colour would disagree with you. I would guess that you are white (and live in a bubble). If you were black, or had any capacity for critical thinking, you would realise that no amount of 'identifying as white' will stop a black person experiencing racism. Same as no 'identifying as male' will stop me being perceived as female or from suffering sexism or sex-based violence. My sex is a material reality, as is my skin colour. Neither is a feeling or a personality.

The point is that if you allow dominant groups to identify into an oppressed group, you impact on the oppressed group's rights and interests. It is not right for a white person to take a scholarship intended for a black person and nor is it right for a biological male to take opportunities that were intended for a biological female.

By living life I mean they wake up, walk, talk, eat, go to sleep female

Wtf does that actually mean? How the fuck does a person eat or sleep their sex?

You might want to google Lila Perry Flaming if you think no trans identified boys enjoy making girls uncomfortable

Susie Green who took her 16 year old child to Thailand for an operation to remove the child’s genitals which was illegal here and is now illegal there.

And I've read that it became illegal in Thailand directly as a result of that specific case

Mixed dorms in hostels and on trains is a completely different issue. No I wouldn’t be happy with them sharing with strangers. These kids at GG are not strangers to the other children.

Utterly illogical. I guess that the boys in your DD's class are not strangers either, but you would probably not be happy if the school brought in mixed changing rooms and showers.

Plus, the strangers thing. I am guessing you would have no issue with your DD sharing with strange biological females, e.g. at a hostel, at the gym or pool. So the fact that you mind when it's a stranger transperson shows that you do think biological sex matters- it's just that you have made some exceptions in relation to people that you know.

It basically makes no sense. Either boys and girls should sleep, change and shower separately or they should not. At least be consistent- you can't say that the should be separated but some should be allowed in. It really has to be all or nothing.

Scribble you are not the only Guider on here
Quite frankly I do not know what I would do if the child at the local secondary school who now identifies as a girl decided to join. The girls all knew them as a boy, and now they are a girl.
Under the new rules I could not tell the parents the trans girl was going to be sharing with their daughters or even say that that was a possibility, without actually outing the trans child. If the trans girl wanted to share with her friends at camp, I would have to let her. It would be up to the other girls to ask to have separate arrangements.
I cannot write an accurate risk assessment about having a male body in with all the female ones, I cannot split them up, and when there is "an incident" I wonder just who will be held responsible.

For those saying but they are all girls - well that doesn't seem to stop all those trans women who say that they are lesbians with "girl dicks". We have all seen the horrifying statistics about childhood sexual abuse - perpetrated by other children, 1 girl a week is raped at school.
Safeguarding rules and sex segregation are there for good reasons and should apply to everyone.

As for adults, well on residential trips we share accommodation. It would probably be easier at camp, I would just take a small tent and sleep on my own. But on indoor trips, there is normally just one leaders bedroom with multiple beds . So what choice would I have? The only person with a penis I have shared with for the last 40 years has been DH - and why should I be put in that situation?

Guiding has always been single sex, biological girls and women only. Why should that be changed?

Susan Leaders resigning will have more impact. More impact for who do you think? If I resign in protest then what will happen is my unit will shut. None of the other Guiders who help me run it will step up to the unit leader post and I would put good money on none of the parents offering to run it. So it shuts. That’s a unit run by a gender critical Guider that now no longer exists. So how does that help those specific girls who now no longer have a unit to go to?

Do you not think that I might have considered resigning? I think it’s the easy option. I plan on staying in and working on the problem from the inside. I have a much louder and more powerful voice by remaining as a member of GirlGuiding than I do from the outside. So what I am suggesting is that if more gender critical women join the organisation you are more likely to make changes than just shouting from the outside.

My daughter is a Brownie, she is loving it. The volunteers and leaders at her group are amazing, I can't fault them.

I won't be considering volunteering for GirlGuiding any more though and I will certainly be scrutinising any of their activities and information for harmful information re sex, gender and stereotyping.

I too want my DD to be free from any bullshit around gender.

These kids at GG are not strangers to the other children.

When I take my group on a large scale camp or residential, they know nobody apart from the small group I take. So they know maybe 10 out of 100s.
Particularly for indoor events (sleepover at the Natural History Museum for e.g.) they will be in the same sleeping space as 100s of other girls.
And possibly a few boys.
I've had Guides from 5 different schools in a group of 10 (2 primary, 3 secondary).

The statistic that one child a week is raped while in a UK school (which is really shocking, how is there not more outrage about this!?) is surely enough evidence to know that it is not just strangers who are a risk. No-one is saying transition makes it more likely, just not less likely.

The point of this thread though is about supporting the female children who GGUK says would be unwelcome if they question their gender.

I have a much louder and more powerful voice by remaining as a member of GirlGuiding than I do from the outside.

You just try that and let us know how it goes. Helen Watts was removed for speaking up. Are you going to speak to the papers in your own name? Go on social media in your name? Speak at a political party conference?

And you've probably already seen how this is not even whispered of on the main GG FB groups.

Yes, I cannot change my skin colour but race is more than just skin colour. Re: diversity quotas, awards etc, it depends on the terms of each individual award etc... Race and gender are not comparable.

SERIOUS LOLZ. Honestly. Have a think about what you are writing here. Race is more than a skin colour- uh huh, but it's the fucking skin colour that makes people subject to prejudice.
Same as your version of being woman is more than just biological sex- yes, but it's the BEING BIOLOGICALLY FEMALE that leaves people open to oppression. If I enter a male tennis tournament, do you think it's my 'lady-feelz' that make me likely to lose it? Or could it perhaps be my female body.

It literally is EXACTLY THE SAME as the race argument. It is. And I have seen no coherent argument beyond 'it's just not' that convinces me otherwise.

what I am suggesting is that if more gender critical women join the organisation you are more likely to make changes than just shouting from the outside

I understand this as a viewpoint. But it goes against my principles to join an organisation now that’s shown its members such little regard.

I think you are all proving my point. I am female because I say I am. I happen to have been born that way. But my sense of self confirms I am female. There is nothing I do that makes me that way. Nothing I do that identifies me that way. Apart from me and my own sense of self. I wake up as me, I walk talk eat sleep as me. It is the same for a trans child. Except their own sense of self gender is the opposite of the sex they were born with.

Race is more than skin colour. I could pass as Swiss as a white woman. I am not Swiss. I clearly said I could not change my skin colour. Race is a social construct based on experience. A black British man has a very different experience to a black Tanzanian man or black American man. Similarly, I can a white Brit have a different experience than an American, French, Icelandic etc woman.

I note no one has justified why it is ok to ostracise vulnerable children because they don’t fit into your clearly defined boxes.

Life isn’t black and white but nuanced - gender is no different.

My local guide leader said that if there was a trans girl in guides on a residential then they would ensure 2 adults also slept in the dorm/tent whatever it was.

I have no issue including trans girls except for residentials.

It's not going to work anyway NoSquirrels. Even if the Chief Guide (who has been a unit leader all her adult life I imagine and knows just how Guiding works) is as GC as they come, even she can't go against the trans lobby groups.

SwissGemma Being Swiss is not a race.
Being white is a race.
A black British or Black Tanzanian man is black. Being British or Tanzanian is also not a race.