To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

Obviously hooe means hope!!

What the fuck is obay???

I give up 😩

Well obviously

Don’t you know that fake penises are more dangerous than real ones now days

I mean come on! Get with the program

Scribbly

I can get it must be annoying to see everyone, many with nothing to do with GG rock up with an opinion, scorn, criticism. Why didn’t those at the top making these ridiculous, arrogant and totally dismissive decisions think would happen when this became common knowledge?

It's not just certain religions and cultures Froglet. There was a sad post from a foster mother yesterday outlining how the very strict restrictions she has for the female children in her care mean she cannot send them somewhere that is mixed sex.

Shania Twain should really re release her song - she’d make a fortune off it now

I would like the GG to clarify whether their advisors on this issue included child rapist / Scout leader David Challenor, advocate for legalization of extreme porn (including depictions of child sexual abuse) Jane Fae and /or Susie Green who took her 16 year old child to Thailand for an operation to remove the child’s genitals which was illegal here and is now illegal there.

GG have clearly been badly advised as to the current state of the law. They’re very much sweeping under the carpet that this policy also applies to leaders not just children so adult males who simply say they identify as women without taking any steps to transition can take girls on what might be their first overnight camp without their parents and the parents have not to be told the person is male. It beggars belief that GG can be so desperate to virtue signal that they would do such a thing.

I was a girl guide myself. I’d consider volunteering if I lived anywhere near a unit that refused to incorporate Christianity in the day-to-day activities of the unit. Unfortunately I no longer live near any GG unit anyway.

Holy shit so much nastiness towards an already persecuted group of children.
This is going to apply to so few guide troupes. If you or your child have a problem with being inclusive then send them to a troupe which doesn’t have any trans kids in it. They’re bloody children - stop being such arses about it.

I have two dds for reference. One of whom goes to scouts and benefits hugely from their inclusivity.

My experience of guides and scouts is that friendship groups pick tent mates rather than having them forced

I have a DS who has gone through Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, and a DD who has gone through Rainbows, Brownies and Guides (just moved onto Rangers). Neither of them, at any residential/camp, have ever chosen who they are in a tent with. One of the main points of these organisations is to make new friends, not stay in your own little clique. It is also easier for the leaders not to have little gangs in the same tent - they stand a chance of getting some sleep that way!

The scout leaders is another issue which does need further discussion and investigation however.

*GG leaders

Rufus that’s good to hear. Would genuinely be interested to hear if anyone who is not involved in Guiding or volunteering has been motivated to join because of these threads.

Susan who on earth is this you who you are referring to? Do you understand that this policy was imposed on us (Guiders who are in the week in week out habit of running our units) by GGUK without consultation. If a consultation process had occurred with grass roots members I suspect the outcome would have different. Do you not think that a significant number of Guiders (maybe even an overwhelming majority, who knows, like I say we were never consulted) are absolutely appalled by the policy. Appalled and furious. And now the message has come across loud and clear that if we resist in clear sight, as Helen has done we will have our memberships revoked and our units closed. That puts us in a rather difficult situation does it not? Those of us who care deeply about the organisation and the girls we run it for don’t want to shut our units because of this policy.

Dragon I suspect that on the ground what will occur will be a huge number of behind the scenes conversations, raised levels of monitoring and potentially frank, open and difficult conversations between pre-existing unit leaders and new trans-women members wanting to join. It’s very difficult to predict from a national perspective how it will play out, although I imagine that the outcome for some units will be either parents removing their girls, Guiders changing their usual annual plans (overnights and camps for example) or even Guiders closing their units. There is of course the possibility that things will just rumble on as they have always done. Very difficult to know at this stage.

This is going to apply to so few guide troupes. If you or your child have a problem with being inclusive then send them to a troupe which doesn’t have any trans kids in it.

The whole point of concern is that parents/girls won't know whether there are any trans kids/leaders until they find themselves next to a penis in a tent or the changing rooms.

It's not hatred. It's concern for our daughter's safety and privacy and self-esteem, and the deceit that GG are instigating in their procedures.

Good points Rufus. Parents need to know what the policy is and that it will be followed. Otherwise informed consent is impossible. Following policy or not as mood dictates is a potential safeguarding nightmare. Although in practise likely to work in many cases (as Scribbly shows).

The problem is that predators do target organisations with poor safeguarding, unclear policy, lack of parental consent and a culture of secrecy. Current situation at GG is encouraging all of these things as far as I can see.

How would you know how if a troop has trans kids in it?

Flaming - they do it for children and they will do it for women.

Would you want your teenage daughter sleeping in mixed dorms what youth hosteling or sleeping compartments in trains when she is a young woman? With men who say they are women - any man - because he says so?

With children it's safeguarding. Have you not read about the Chancellor case and the scouts?

FlamingGalar - This is not anti trans, the posts here are in support of girls who feel trans, not against them. We want them to feel welcome to stay in guides, especially given how many (estimates of around 80%) dysphoric girls actually stop being dysphoric as they grow up and many are actually lesbians. Exactly the girls that need the support of a single sex organisation being both female and gay.

I am not hard of thinking or reasoning... and at no point did I say people could change sex. I said gender. What I am is someone who disagrees with you - there is a difference. I do not share your opinion.

I believe people can make a choice to identify as a gender other than that with which they were born. This is not an easy choice to make. I believe children (or young adults) need support rather than being ostracised. Personally I would rather a teen working out who they are is given a chance to experience life as the other gender if they think that is who they are. My positive experiences of both scouts and guides leads be to believe that a trans boy who believes he should have been born a girl would be well supported. No one would force children to share tents who didn't want to - even same sex children as that way chaos lies.

A girl is a child/teen who lives life as a female, who uses female pronouns. A woman is an adult who lives life as a female. It is not difficult. By living life I mean they wake up, walk, talk, eat, go to sleep female - not that they pick and chose on a daily basis. (although I am not a fan of cis - I do not choose to be identified as a cis female - just female).

I don't agree with the race analogy at all. I can choose a religion. I can choose to live in the manner of a different race - food, culture, etc.I can change nationality and identify with another. I am British. I live in Switzerland. My son, despite having a British passport identifies as Swiss. Yes, I cannot change my skin colour but race is more than just skin colour. Re: diversity quotas, awards etc, it depends on the terms of each individual award etc... Race and gender are not comparable.

(yes you are right it is just scouts I was a scout and I am female no idea where the stray boy came from)

My experiences are different. I have been involved in guides and scouts since I was a child and it was always "get into groups of 4/5/6" for sleep purposes. Activities often moved people around but for tents/dorms choices were given. No one wants to share a tent with someone they are not comfortable with same sex or not.

I can choose to live in the manner of a different race

Seriously? So a white person can choose to "live as a black person" and they will then share the same experiences?

Presumably if all black people identify as white racism disappears?

For better or worse, our skin colour is what we are born with and it shapes peoples perceptions however we may not like it.

Ditto sex. Its sex which makes us vulnerable.

Gender is not sex.

Scribbly you were suggesting that women who were angry about the policy should redirect their energies towards volunteering for the organisation that they are protesting against. I was responding to that.

I suggest that if more leaders are appalled that they also resign in protest. Maybe then the message will be drummed home. Your initial post suggested that you thought it was overreaction on the GC women’s part. Apologies if that is not the case. I really cannot see how more women volunteering for an organisation that throws girls under the bus will be effective. Leaders resigning is likely to have more impact.

My concern regarding both Male helpers and trans girls is that the girls (the actual girls) are being told that they have to be kind and accepting and lose any concerns that they may have about Male bodies in their spaces.

By living life I mean they wake up, walk, talk, eat, go to sleep female

Can you define what you mean by this? What does eating like a female look like? Is it choosing a salad and probiotic yoghurt over a juicy steak? Is it taking a smaller portion at the table so the men folk can have a bigger one?

Is sleeping like a female something to do with silky nightwear or maybe pink PJs with a cute teddy on them?

Seriously how do you define living as a female without resorting to stereotypes?

I would imagine that a trans girl would be far more concerned about others seeing their naked bodies than most. I doubt there would be much in the way of willy waving in the dorms so I wouldn’t be highly concerned about this no. In fact most children of that age would prefer privacy when changing and that should be provided regardless.
There are ways to integrate trans girls into the troupes with minimum impact on the other members. It wouldn’t bother me even one little bit of there has been a trans child in either of my daughters scouts/ cubs/ brownie groups. Not one little bit.
Mixed dorms in hostels and on trains is a completely different issue. No I wouldn’t be happy with them sharing with strangers. These kids at GG are not strangers to the other children.