To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

When I was in the Guides it was very much a Christian organisation - Church parade was compulsory, the promise included a promise to God. Has this now changed?

Very good point, as far as I know you still promise to obey God and it is very much Christian (Cubs and Scouts are anyway so assume Brownies and Guides still are too!) - Christmas, Easter parades, church events etc.
Is there honestly Muslim (going by the example given upthread) children wanting to sign up that would feel excluded? Fair enough if so, but I wouldn't have thought it would be high with the pledging to God etc? Genuinely curious.

Well I very much doubt that someone who was concerned with their child being around only girls would be happy with them being around a transgender child. And of course they’d know. A minute ago we were talking about how much kids rely on the close peer relationships in these groups and now the fact someone is transgender would go completely unnoticed?
And as I said earlier in the thread the idea that someone who wishes to identify as the opposite sex would want to stay in a group that is solely for their biological sex wouldn’t happen.
But hey let’s not let reality get in the way of transgender bashing (sorry, I mean your legitimate concerns about access to girl guiding in the Muslim community).

I don’t think that last question was aimed specifically at you, swissgemma.

Families have different reasons for choosing Guiding as an activity for their children. Some who are drawn to the all-girl environment may be comfortable with the inclusion of boys who identify as girls but it seems very likely that some won’t. Their children will lose the opportunity to join.

But you’ve either forgotten what it’s like to be a teenage girl, never been a teenage girl, or never listened to a teenage girl properly to understand them. (Or a teenage girl has never opened up to you so you CAN understand them.)

Well I definitely have been a teenage girl and have a teenage daughter and her friends are here A LOT of the time. We have lots of very open talks - can't remember any having been about periods (not since it was the topic of conversation at primary school during sex ed lessons really when they discussed it then). Once they had started they've all just dealt with them.

Tbh, they are very open with their male classmates and my daughter has equal numbers of boy and girl friends. They have been a group all through secondary school (all at uni now) and socialise as a group rather than just girls. They do talk about anything with each other which I think is very healthy. There's no "boy" topics or "girl" topics.

why am I expected to have all the answers.

I don’t expect you to have answers, Swiss. I do though expect you to acknowledge that the GG cannot overcome traditional Islam and sex segregation via ‘open discussion’.

Admitting male-bodied people renders GirlGuiding a mixed sex environment, and this females are excluded, A substantial number of females.

It’s not just a case-by-case scenario.

Sorry, forgot to thank the poster who explained that Guides are no longer a predominantly Christian organisation. They definitely were when I was a Guide and even when my daughter was there about 10 years ago - definitely Church parades and they took it in turns to give the reading in Church. They even had to take it in turns to write a prayer to close each pack meeting but perfectly happy to be corrected that this is no longer the case.

I have said i do not know enough to comment. I will not be drawn on religious issues. Arguing from a position of inadequate knowledge does everyone a disservice.

Because none of us can talk for the guides

But the division is between parents who won't let their girls share s;eeping spaces with boys on residential trips, and people like you, who think boys who identify as girls should be allowed to attend. Both of those groups are represented here. We've got open discussion here. We can find a solution, if there is a solution to be found. So why not have at it?

Is there honestly Muslim (going by the example given upthread) children wanting to sign up that would feel excluded? Fair enough if so, but I wouldn't have thought it would be high with the pledging to God etc? Genuinely curious.

No pledging to God any more.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/glad-to-have-been-a-girl-guide-1776169.html%3famp

At some groups with a lot of Muslim members, girls work towards the new "Right To" badge, which teaches them about their right to be heard, to express their feelings and to worship.

"Usually we don't get the opportunity to join groups, so it is nice to be able to hang out with other girls without my parents worrying about boys being there" said 15-year-old Amani Khan, who attends a Middlesbrough Guide group. "They are generally quite protective, and it was nice to be able to make new friends and build my self-confidence."

Creating a female-only space in which girls can feel comfortable trying new things has always been one of the main objectives of the Guide movement

Think that was me, BrownPaperTeddy. Someone else, though, posted the link to GGUK’s guidance on including faith groups, which confirms that church parades are not part of the guiding programme (although I guess they may still be important in “sponsored” units).

And those ‘quite protective’ parents would be fine with a girl who identifies as a boy mixing with their dd?

Thanks, didn't realise that the pledge had been dropped. I'm pretty sure Cubs and Scouts still have Christian values though such as church events, Easter parades etc - is that not the case for Guides anymore, have they dropped those too?

And as I said earlier in the thread the idea that someone who wishes to identify as the opposite sex would want to stay in a group that is solely for their biological sex wouldn’t happen.

PorkGlute, you really are behind the times. Transmen routinely access womens' services (and use women's loos, etc) all the time, have done since forever. Transmen have accepted women's awards (eg the Canadian Women in the Arts critic-in-residence was a transman). I don't think there's ever been a transman who wanted to be moved into a men's prison - they all stay in the womens' estate. Your notion of "wouldn't happen" is absurd and disproved with about five seconds googling.

And those ‘quite protective’ parents would be fine with a girl who identifies as a boy mixing with their dd?

Yes, because they'd almost certainly not give a shit what she "identifies" as, they'd know she was a girl.

I am "quite protective" and have come across this in a non-GG youth residential situation. I made it clear that I was happy with my son to share sleeping accommodation with any biological boy, including any that identified as transgirls, nonbinary, etc etc. I just required them to be biologically male.

I think if you are going to identify as a boy though it would really undermine it to remain part of an organisation that excludes boys.
You don’t appear to be happy with trans people using the facilities of their biological sex or the sex they identify with.

We've got open discussion here. We can find a solution, if there is a solution to be found.

I think for a solution to be found we would also need to hear from the parents of pre-teen and teenage transgender children; the parents to friends and peers of pre-teen and teenage transgender children; and guide leaders, teachers and others in similar roles who work with pre-teen and teenage transgender children. These perspectives are entirely absent in threads such as this.

(honestly, and this is conjecture, that guides has yet to put forward a leader whose charges include a transgender child, suggests that the number of transgender guides is vanishingly small)

Again I have repeatedly said I do not agree with forced shared sleeping in any scenario. No one should be forced to share with someone they don’t want to.

I’m not going to repeat the entirety of the thread with new people.

We’re off down the rabbit hole now, Pork. It’s my belief that those “quite protective” parents don’t have an issue with the “identity” of “boy” but the physical reality of “boy”.

But I suspect you’d disagree.

Equally, the Christian values or otherwise of GG aren’t material to whether a Muslim parent who’s OK with some cultural practices like a St George’s Day parade likely wouldn’t agree to a male in a single-sex organisation.

ArcheryAnnie I know quite a few traditional strictly observing Muslim families and I cry bullshit that they would be happy with their children mixing with transgender children.

Archeryannie which is exactly what I proposed but was told was not possible.

It obviously that doesn’t fit with the argument that membership being based on biological sex makes it more inclusive. So let’s pretend that the parents would be fine with it.

You don’t appear to be happy with trans people using the facilities of their biological sex

I am. I'm totally happy with everyone using the facilities of their biological sex, whatever they identify as. I'm delighted if transwomen use the men's room. I'm delighted if girls who identify as transboys, or as nonbinary, carry on in female-only places. It's actively what I want.

the number of transgender guides is vanishingly small

Quite.

And yet policy change has been based on this.

A single sex organisation now is mixed sex - without consultation- due to a tiny minority.

Progress, eh? Isn’t it marvelllous?

You don’t appear to be happy with trans people using the facilities of their biological sex

I am. I'm totally happy with everyone using the facilities of their biological sex, whatever they identify as. I'm delighted if transwomen use the men's room. I'm delighted if girls who identify as transboys, or as nonbinary, carry on in female-only places. It's actively what I want.

ArcheryAnnie I know quite a few traditional strictly observing Muslim families and I cry bullshit that they would be happy with their children mixing with transgender children.

I should imagine most people on MN know quite a few traditional Muslim families (or indeed ARE traditional Muslim families) - Muslims aren't unicorns, only visible to enlightened people like you.

Muslims, like any other group, are also not a monolith. But any family which does not wish or allow their girl children to sleepover with boys will indeed not be happy with their girl children having sleepovers with trans-identified male children, because they will correctly identify them as boys. But since they will also correctly identify "transboys" as girls, there's nothing to object to, there.