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Original poster

To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

636 replies

OrchidInTheSun · 27/09/2018 06:45

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 27/09/2018 08:02

ScribblyGum -I am inclined to agree with you. I suspect that, except for a possible publicity stunt or two, the only people who are going to be affected by this are girls from strictly religious exclusionary families who will now not be allowed to join.

Dragon3 · 27/09/2018 08:07

Susan, I've seen those opinions expressed seriously elsewhere and missed your sarcasm!

GG can't be both a single-sex and single-gender organisation.

The lack of honesty about GG being mixed sex is worrying. It is now impossible for parents to make informed choices for their children.

In Scouts, parents are fully informed about mixed-sex activities and can consent or not as appropriate. In GG, the fact that an activity is mixed sex or led by a male who identifies as a woman is now deliberately withheld from parents.

There are plenty of perfectly valid reasons why parents might not consent to their DD being cared for by a male bodied person. Abuse in the girl's past. Religious or cultural reasons. Dignity and confidence issues to do with puberty. Maybe the girl just wants to be in a female-only environment sometimes.

It's up to GG, but seems a shame for girls to have the option of a single sex organisation removed. Especially when a mixed-sex alternative (Scouts) already exists. All female YPs, including those who identify as transboys, should certainly be allowed to remain in GG if it returns to being single sex.

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 08:09

Trans boys are boys. Trans girls are girls. People that have decided to live their life as the gender they were not born into become that new gender. There is no need for further definition. Boys are boys. Girls are girls. Trans boys are boys. Trans girls are girls.

The guides are not encouraging transition. They are saying to people - we respect your autonomy. We support your autonomy. If a girl is a guide and then identifies as a boy there is no reason a troop would deny accesss if it is a supportive group. If a girl is not a guide and decides to be a boy then in reality she wouldn’t want to join the girl guides but the Boy Scouts. My experience of guides and scouts is that friendship groups pick tent mates rather than having them forced.

BertrandRussell · 27/09/2018 08:11

Scouts-not Boy Scouts.

Bowlofbabelfish · 27/09/2018 08:13

Trans boys are boys. Trans girls are girls.

Really? Do you believe humans can change sex, swissgemma?

Can you tell me how that works?

Original poster
OrchidInTheSun · 27/09/2018 08:15

"If a girl is a guide and then identifies as a boy there is no reason a troop would deny accesss if it is a supportive group."

Not so SwissGemma. They should be encouraged to leave in accordance with Guiding policy.

OP posts:
ScribblyGum · 27/09/2018 08:16

Orchid, resistance to the policy removing girls because they identify as boys will just occur at a grass roots level and will addressed at District Meetings by a meeting of Guiders' eyes across the (wobbly parish hall) table, a roll of the eyes, a complicit silent agreement that we do not kick our members, many who might have started with us aged five, because of how they feel about themselves, and then moving along to the altogether more pressing subject of the hateful GO online system and our waiting lists.

GGUK can try to kick me out, but I'll just keep on keeping on under the radar running my unit as I see fit in the best interest of the girls in my care.

SusanBunch · 27/09/2018 08:16

Swissgemma I can tell that critical thinking is not your strong point, but could you at least answer this question:

If gender is simply how a person feels (I am a woman because I feel like a woman), what is the justification for segregation of the genders? Because according to your definition, biological sex makes no difference- it is all about an identity and an inner feeling of being male or female. Why then do we have separate facilities for those who feel male and those who feel female? Could you venture an explanation?

DixieFlatline · 27/09/2018 08:18

My experience of guides and scouts is that friendship groups pick tent mates rather than having them forced

So if girls are uncomfortable sharing a tent with a boy, 1) they’ll express that to the guiders AND 2) the guiders will choose to put the boy in a tent of his own, alone, rather than push for him not to be ‘left out’ - is that your argument?

OvaHere · 27/09/2018 08:19

Trans boys are boys. Trans girls are girls.

No they are not. People cannot change sex and if you are talking about the legal gender change of having a GRC then this does not apply to under 18's.

Children and teens cannot be the opposite sex in any legal way so what the Guides are doing is creating a mixed sex environment without informed parental consent and it goes completely against the basics of safeguarding when applied to activities such as overnight camping.

ScribblyGum · 27/09/2018 08:21

Just as a random aside I do wonder if any of the posters on the multiple threads about this issue have ever considered volunteering to help run or become involved in Girl Guiding? There appears to be so much online passion for our organisation, wouldn’t it be lovely if some of this energy could be translated into actual real world action of offering your time to help out at your local unit.

Original poster
OrchidInTheSun · 27/09/2018 08:23

Scribbly. I would have considered in the past but I etc my volunteer for an organisation that has so little respect for girls' boundaries and such poor safeguarding

OP posts:
Original poster
OrchidInTheSun · 27/09/2018 08:24

I wont

OP posts:
Original poster
OrchidInTheSun · 27/09/2018 08:24

Won't even!

OP posts:
SusanBunch · 27/09/2018 08:25

If this was ANY other area, this idiotic logic would be laughed out of the building.
Sex is a material reality, not a social construct. So is race. The social construct bit is that being one sex carries with it certain traits (and the same for race). What if I said that race is all about identity and a person is the race they claim to be? That I (as a white person) can apply dark makeup and I should be recognised as a black woman? That I as a white woman should be entitled to apply for scholarships reserved for black people? That by employing me, a company would be fulfilling its diversity quota? That I should receive awards for Black Woman of the Year?

If you think that is totally okay, then I suggest you have a strong fucking word with yourself. If you think that is totally different from the transgender thing, ask yourself WHY. WHY is it so different? Why is it okay for a man to say he feels like a woman, to access female spaces, to stand on all women shortlists, to get awards reserved for women, but it would not be okay for a white person to do the same in respect of black people?

Women as a sex class have been oppressed for centuries. Do you think the men that refused to give women the vote or to take university degrees gave a shit about their identity? No. It was because they had a vagina that they were excluded. Pure and simple. The legislation stated 'no women' and it didn't matter if they felt male. Same with black oppression. Fuck all to do with identity and all to do with material reality.

I wonder if it's stupidity of wilful blindness that makes people swallow this shit, but it really is incredible.

BevBrook · 27/09/2018 08:26

I have never posted on any of these threads before and am confused and uncertain as to where my sympathies lie. However, @Swissgemma, is it not illogical to say a girl is whoever feels like a girl with no further definition? If a girl is whoever feels like a girl, what does it mean to feel like a girl? How does one know if one feels like a girl?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 27/09/2018 08:27

scribbly

I think youll find a lot of the posters (not me!) have personal experience of being a guide leader or a volunteer

Especially on numerous threads on the FWR board

SusanBunch · 27/09/2018 08:27

wouldn’t it be lovely if some of this energy could be translated into actual real world action of offering your time to help out at your local unit.

Maybe if you change your idiotic policy, you would get more volunteers. Just a thought. Mind boggling why you think those that legitimately criticise the dangerous way in which your organisation is run would want to divert their energies into working for you.... But then logical thinking does not appear to be the forte of the GG.

OddBoots · 27/09/2018 08:28

They are completely breaking the equality act, sex is a protected characteristic so they can discriminate and be a single sex organisation but if they start saying that some female children cannot be members just because they identify as a different gender (or none at all) then they are breaking the law.

Likewise when they let some male sexed people in but bar others from membership then they are also breaking the law.

I hope someone brings a legal case against them for their sexist behaviour.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 27/09/2018 08:28

My MIL was a guide leader back in the day, and she still gets mentioned by women my age who live in the village when they realise i was related (by marriage) to her...which is nice

Ikeasucks · 27/09/2018 08:32

Just watched the Susie Green clip talking on this eith Piers Morgan and Susannsh Reid. She just kept repeating (like SwissGemma) that transgirls are girls and transboys are boys. Was interesting to see that for a change the others present (4) seemed to disagree with her - tho didn’t directly say that’s not the case.

Dragon3 · 27/09/2018 08:35

Scribbly, I'm glad to hear that leaders on the ground are unlikely to manage out female guides who identify as boys. That was my hope and suspicion.

Can I ask what you think the on the ground safeguarding response will be to a male leader or helper who identifies as a woman?

Especially a fully-intact-male-but-woman-because-I-say-so type (rather than transitioned-years-ago-dysphoric-transsexual). I have no doubt that predatory non-trans males will try to access GG by calling themselves women.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 27/09/2018 08:42

Unfortunately scribbly can only talk for themselves and their friends

Ive every confidence (bearing in mind its words on a screen) that scribbly would do their utmost to protect the girls in their care

But other guide leaders have been kicked out for saying they wont do that and also we've no idea what will hapoen if parents complain

Having said that i hooe it doesn't happen and i think that the vast majority of leaders and parents will do their best for the girls

BUT.....the policy remains the same. And if leaders are saying that they just wont 'obay' that part of the policy am i to have confidence that they are following policy in anything else

Frogletmamma · 27/09/2018 08:42

DD is a scout. She is one of a couple of girls but she is perfectly happy in a mixed group. Really glad she is in it now as she attends a single sex school. I didn't want her first contact with males to be at Uni!

Can understand the point about different cultures requiring a girl only space. It would be a shame if the guides policies made some feel excluded.

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