To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

Race is a social construct based on experience.

Do you have the slightest idea how fucking offensive that is?

The result of all this is that I wouldn't allow any of my kids back to any scouting or guides organisation ever again. The whole thing is creepy AF.

Scribbly Averylongtime

Presumably you as leaders won't necessarily know whether a new member/Leader is trans or do new membership forms ask? If you don't, that must make risk assessments even harder.

All well and good if it is someone everyone has known from school, and been on the 'journey' together, but I assume that for some individuals, it would be easier to turn up at a unit where no-one has known them before, and therefore will be unaware of past events.

I also assume that there is no guidance on how far down the trans journey new members need to be to be allowed to join. Is there a distinction between Joanna who has been living as a girl for 3 years, and Fred, who joined the local 6th form last month, has heard the local Rangers are camping over half term and fancies having a laugh so turns up as Tina wanting to join?

More impact for who do you think?

For the organisation. Yes, it's a shame for the girls, but maybe then some pressure will be placed on GG to change their policy.

I mean, if you are planning on working from the inside, what will you do? Because as another person has pointed out here, those that did speak out were fired. So as soon as you raise any GC concerns, you are out. That's why it baffles me that you first of all say it's all a bit of drama over nothing, then you say that women should redirect their energies into volunteering for the place they are protesting against, and then you say you are appalled by the policy and will work from the inside. I don't think that hundreds of women volunteering and accepting the policy will send the message to GG that they are deeply wrong about this.

Drspouse you think that is the only way to make change. Papers and social media? You don’t think that a bottom up movement is possible
and more likely to succeed?

I’ve got a district meeting and safe space training coming up. I'm not going to be quiet about it there.

averylongtimeago and supposing the girls were uncomfortable about sharing sleeping accommodation and/or showers with the transgirl they'd all known as a boy - which they might do, because however friendly they were all together, they might feel very awkward indeed at the prospect of undressing and being naked in front of a male-bodied person - THEY would be the ones GG would consider to be hateful bigots in need of re-education.

Because let's not forget, TransgirlsAreGirls, TransgirlsareGirls, TransgirlsareGirls, TransgirlsareGirls, TransgirlsareGirls, TransgirlsareGirls.......repeat until we've all been properly brainwashed.

MrsArch what about swimming, regular multi-cubicle toilets where girls may need to change a tampon, discussing periods in the unit, discussing sexual harassment, discussing gender stereotyping, changing for other activities e.g. water activities where you may need to completely strip/wash afterwards?

Crikey! How many knots did SwissGemma's last posts tie?

I can barely follow it all!

I think you are all proving my point. I am female because I say I am.

I am female because I have a female reproductive system.

I am a person who is me, with my own sense of ‘self’ and identity. That’s not what makes me female, though.

Skin colour is just one aspect of race. Re: sports yes, you may lose. But similarly you may win. I suspect Venus and Serena could’ve given a lot of the men a run for their money. And Lindsey Vonn would easily out ski most men. As a no sporty person there is no way I could compete against anyone really!

Scribbly good luck to you but everyone I know either:
a) has drunk the kool-aid and sees no issues
b) thinks it won't happen here because we are a traditional area or
c) may agree with you but won't dare to say it in public.

And as they haven't listened to leaders on the ground so far, they still won't.
Even if your DC, DivC, CC and RC agree with you that will change NOTHING.

And if you e.g. submit a risk assessment to a DC that doesn't agree with you, but which says "risk of having a transwoman as a leader XYZ" you'll get reported for breach of guidelines as quick as you can say "A Guide is honest, reliable and can be trusted."

I am female because I say I am. I happen to have been born that way. But my sense of self confirms I am female.

No, you are female because you have XX chromosomes, a vagina, breasts etc. Your sense of self confirms that you are female because you are female. My sense of self confirms that I am human, but I recognise that only a human could say that. If my cat felt human, he wouldn't be human.
Also, being Swiss is NOT a race. What would you say if I said I had an innate knowledge of what it was to be black and I curled my hair and wore dark foundation and told everyone that I was just expressing my blackness? And I said I was black because I like rap music and Caribbean food? Would that not be the most fucking offensive thing you could imagine? Why? Because I am not black and I have no concept of what being black is like. So how can a biological male know what being a female is like? The answer is that they can't. They may well identify with gender-aspects such as being submissive and nurturing etc. Those are socially constructed and are not a natural part of being female. The only marker for being female is having female biology.

The thing that I can't understand is that all these GG professionals, who their whole working lives have (presumably, and I bloody hope) approached safeguarding and risk assessment through a logical, evidence-based process, seem to think that logical, evidence-based process can be entirely replaced by the meaningless repetition of the words "we take safeguarding extremely seriously", while in practice completely ignoring major safeguarding red flags.

I’m sorry what?

Susan, you are wrong, the Guiders I know are all angry about it and are making their feelings known. As soon as you raise GC concerns you are out is hyperbole. Loads of discussion happening openly within my district. I did not say it was a drama over nothing, I addressed the OPs question and I believe that trans-boys in GG will not be kicked out because Guiders simply will ignore that bit of the policy.

And “yes it’s a shame for the girls” speaks volumes really. I'll resist this policy my own way if that’s OK with you, while keeping my unit open and the opportunities for girls to discuss this issue with a GC woman as an option.

If they want to identify as male they have to deal with the fact they can't be part of an all female group! You can't have it both ways.

Skin colour is just one aspect of race.

But it's the skin colour that leads to prejudice. Can you not see that? People are oppressed for being BLACK (ie having dark skin), not because they identify as being fucking Swiss or whatever.

Re: sports yes, you may lose. But similarly you may win. I suspect Venus and Serena could’ve given a lot of the men a run for their money.

No. Serena did not even beat a male in the 200s of the world rankings when she played against him. If we did not have sex segregation in sports, she would be nowhere near a championship. Fact. Someone as amazing and dedicated as Serena Williams would not have a single championship trophy and you would think that okay because it's all about feelz. Your line of thinking would exclude virtually all biological females from sports.

Race is not just skin colour. It is also belonging to a distinct social/ethnic group ie: Swiss, French, Tanzanian, Welsh.

With GG, the main issue is not membership per se, but the absolutely idiotic and blatant lack of safeguarding on overnight trips and the refusal to allow parents to give informed consent as to whether they want their daughters to share sleeping space and showers with a biological male.
This ^^

And again. Why is it ok to ostracise a vulnerable child?

Drspouse nine of what you describe seems an issue. Changing a tampon is always done in private in a single cubicle for every woman. Swimming again use a single cubicle. My local baths has communal changing rooms with loads of cubicles. And the rest is all talking and I'd expect boys to know just as much as girls about periods. Hell my 6 yr old DS has talked about periods with me.

What's with all the guide threads lately anyway? 3 just on the first page...

Scribbly you are trying to backtrack hugely but I am glad that you are not swallowing the policy hook line and sinker. The people who did speak up were fired. They were asked to leave. Ergo if you speak up, you will be asked to leave. So if you want to stay, you need to keep quiet. You might be able to have conversations on a local level, but how will you change policy at the top if you do not actively challenge their policy. Will you write to the leadership?

My comment does not 'speak volumes'. Your stance reminds me of the people who criticised university strikes by saying 'poor students' and expecting staff to put up with shit conditions. That attitude ensures that policies at the top are never challenged. The policy is wrong and it is not in the interests of the girls who attend. If leaders resign en masse or at least vocally protest, my guess is that they will rethink it. If everyone keeps schtum, they won't.

What's with all the guide threads lately anyway?

They’ve expelled leaders for questioning policy on safeguarding.

They’ve changed from a single sex organisation to a single gender organisation without consultation.

They’ll no longer support female born children on an ‘identity’ basis whilst supporting male born children.

Quite shocking, no?